
---------------------------------------------------------------------
NOT-NEWS.DOC -- 19980129 -- Info on this NOVELL-specific mailing LIST
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	Feel free to add or edit this document and then email
	it back to faq@jelyon.com




"Internet advice" - A close approximation to a maximal length linear
		    congruential random number generator. - Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:24:58 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Newsgroup doesn't get this group

	The novell@listserv.syr.edu list is for Novell-specific topics,
principally NetWare and related material. It is a privately operated
listserver; it is NOT a News group, no matter how you receive material.
The items below are to assist you in dealing with the listserver machine.

	If you have subscribed to the list and wish to send messages
to all list members then send them to
	novell@listserv.syr.edu

	If you have subscribed to the list and wish to control your
listserver subscription (talk to the listserver machine proper, not
to the list of people) then send Email to
	listserv@listserv.syr.edu
A one line message HELP should give you a nice thick instruction manual.
Remember, it's a machine doing the parsing so omit all human-speak, no
signature stuff, no fancy things).

	If you wish to subscribe or unsubscribe send to address
	listserv@listserv.syr.edu
and use a ONE LINE message (no .sigs, no fancy stuff, just one bare line)
saying either
	subscribe novell        your-real-name
or      unsubscribe novell
The listserver machine will read the mailgram headers to discover your
Email return address; be sure to subscribe from the proper address!

	If you can't unsubscribe because your Email address is no longer
the same as when you subscribed (alas, please don't let that happen)
then contact a human at
	novell-request@listserv.syr.edu
and explain the problem. Don't send the problem to me (see below).

	If traffic to your Email address bounces your subscription will
be terminated. In such cases please see your Email Responsible Person,
get the matter straightened out locally, ensure your machine has a proper
and valid Domain Name Server MX (mail exchange) record and that your mailers
actually work. Then try resubscribing. Many mailers are broken: they may
provide incorrect or fragmentary headers. Many mailers are broken: they
may not know how to properly queue messages or route them locally. Broken
mailers mean you lose. A few people forget to unsubscribe or turn off Mail
at the listserver machine while they travel. Fewer foolishly send back
"vacation" messages to each arriving message; don't let that happen to you.

	Smart sites may wish to take out one subscription for the entire
site, and place the traffic into a local fake NEWS group for general
reading. That does not make the list NEWS, and the list is NOT a NEWS
group. This saves network bandwidth, saves cpu cyles at Syracuse, and
provides easy access to people who do not wish to subscribe.

	A note: I live in Utah; the list machine is at Syracuse Univ in
New York State. That's a long way from my place and I have no priv'd
control at all over the machine. Thus I cannot control your subscription
even if I wanted to assist. The folks who do have control all work at
Syracuse Univ, so please contact them as instructed above. I worry about
the content of the list traffic, they worry about traffic delivery.

	Joe Doupnik
	jrd@cc.usu.edu  (that's Utah State University)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:23:03 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is Novell healthy?

>Joe, Floyd, and all of us Wannabee's
>First of all, I want to say that I have found this list very informative
>and valuable as both a learning tool and a hazard-avoidance roadmap :-)
>Kudos to all who keep it a high quality list.
>However, I find that sometime I begin to loose focus on the fact that all
>(almost) we read about on the list are _problems_.  Like a newspaper
>or TV station, it would be nice to hear some good news from time to
>time.  If you have the time, and without wasting too much bandwidth, could
>some of you reply (to me personally if you don'e want to post to the list)
>with an informal compact synopsis of your 'net and your current state of
>Netware health?  Perhaps an example would help:
>
>Server(s): 1) 4.1
>Disk Drive(s): mirrored 1 gig SCSI's
>Ram: 32 megs
>Number of users: 40
>Other modules: First Mail with Netware Connect
>Netware Health: No problems for last two months
>
>Just to help give all of us a more realistic grounding in the current
>state of some of the users on the list, and on Netware in general.
-----------
	Problems are the meat and potatos of this list, inherently so. My
place, extended some, uses a heck of a lot of Novell servers. Maybe 1K of
them across the state in an IPX network. That is putting our file serving
eggs into one basket, and we are pleased. NetWare is popular because it works
so well, despite all. You'd have to try the competition to get a feeling for
this. The serious technical competition is Banyan Vines and DEC Pathworks.
MS is hardly a networking company, despite the intense brainwashing that
occurs, but they are likely to grab lots of dollars anyway.
	To obtain warm fuzzies on NetWare you'd have to find some advocacy
group on NEWS, and this isn't the place for such chatter. Hard nosed
engineering says NetWare is really good stuff (could be a lot better, mind
you, but it's head and shoulders above the other guys), and we leave alone
stroking the egos of system managers.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:27:12 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: novelli: Are VLMs slow ?

	A gentle reminder to readers: do not send encoded anything
to the list, please. Not only are most readers unable or unwilling
to go to the trouble to extract and find a proper decoder, it is
also totally unnecessary with text files. We don't want binary
files either. That leaves a total of 0 files that show up encoded
on the list.
	Thanks,
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:22:33 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FRQ to New York Sys Integrators

>Request for Quote
>to New York System Integrators, Consultants, CNE's, ABC's and XYZ's.
>
>Our company needs a gateway to the outside world:
>
>Regards, Kirby
-------
	It also needs someone with a clue. This is an international
listserver dedicated to NetWare technical topics, run privately, not
a trade publication or commercial endevour, nor the NY Times. Please
help reduce abuse of the Internet.
	Thanks,
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:38:22 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: FRQ to New York Sys Integrators

>>>Request for Quote
>>>to New York System Integrators, Consultants, CNE's, ABC's and XYZ's.
>>>
>>>Our company needs a gateway to the outside world:
>>>
>>>Regards, Kirby
>>-------
>>	It also needs someone with a clue. This is an international listserver
>>dedicated to NetWare technical topics, run privately, not a trade publication
>>or commercial endevour, nor the NY Times. Please help reduce abuse of the
>>Internet.
>>	Thanks,
>>	Joe D.
>
>Joe,
>
>OK. that sounds reasonable, if a little snide.  I'll refrain in the
>future.  I'm still learning my nettiquette.  I knew it was bad to post
>advertisements, but I thot requests-for-professional-help were OK.
>
>By-the-by, do you happen to know of a good place to post such
>messages?  Perhaps on one of the commercial services?  I'd appreciate
>advice from a more experienced net user like yourself, or anyone else.
>
>Thanks,
>Kirby
---------
	Not meant to be snide; meant to be highly annoyed. NEWS has plenty
of jobs offered/wanted groups and that's the place for such messages. Folks
looking for jobs quickly learn where to look and post, and the headhunters
ought to be sharp enough too (else choose a hunter with that much of a clue).
	Folks may get the impression that I don't like commercial exploitation
of this list and private Internet mail. That might well be the case, in spades.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:09:42 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Year 2000

	Folks, let the subject rest. Unless you happen to be writing
code which will be affected then there isn't anything you can do about
the problem except fill our disk drives with talk, almost of which has no
factual basis.
	Idle speculation and mindless drivel belong on NEWS, and this list
is not NEWS.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:40:18 -0500
From: "Glenn A. Malling" <gmalling@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject: bit.listserv.novell to become a moderated newsgroup

In preparation for some changes we will make in the operation
of the NOVELL mailing list, bit.listserv.novell is being changed
to a moderated newsgroup with novell@listserv.syr.edu as the
moderator.

bit.listserv.novell may (will) be a little flakey while the
control message to make the change propagates through usenet.
To insure that your posting to bit.listserv.novell propagates
throughout usenet and the mailing list please mail it to
novell@listserv.syr.edu.  While the control message is
propagating and being acted upon by the news servers and
news administrators you may find that your news server will
accept a post to bit.listserv.novell because it doesn't as yet
know that the group is moderated.  Your posting may subsequently
be dropped when it reaches a news server that does know that
bit.listserv.novell is moderated.  In sum, this change is NOT
atomic, not all news servers will change at the same time.

More later on the upcoming changes to novell@listserv.syr.edu.

Glenn A. Malling <gmalling@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Syracuse University Computing Services   +1 (315) 443-4111
220 Machinery Hall  Syracuse, New York 13244-1260
Postmaster for SUnix and LISTSERV.

---------

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:08:01 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bit.listserv.novell to become a moderated newsgroup

>In preparation for some changes we will make in the operation
<snip>
>Postmaster for SUnix and LISTSERV.
---------------
	Let me amplify Glenn's comments.

	This means that very shortly the only people able to SUBMIT
messages to the list will be those who are SUBSCRIBEd to the list.

	For subscription assistance please refer to my standard "blurb"
attached below.
	If your organization, like mine, takes out a subscription on
behalf of the organization and places incoming messages into a fake NEWS
group for easy reading by everyone then you can't respond from that group.
However, individuals may subscribe and then tell the listserver machine
to SET NO MAIL; that lets such individuals send to the list and still
have one incoming message stream (saves bandwidth and cpu cycles).
	We hope to provide a helpful message saying more or less this
whenever a message arrives at Syracuse from a non-subscribed person.
	The reason for the change boils down to simply far too much stray
traffic from folks who are unaware of topics having been extensively
discussed and who also often contribute nothing back to the list. Such
messages dilute the time and energy of those who are subscribed, and hence
the quality of the list. The alternative is a fully moderated list, with a
horrid workload for the moderator and long time delays between submissions
and publication on the list; we'd like to avoid that approach.

	May I recommend that folks who aren't subscribed please do so now.
Please notice that the listserver machine (not the list of people) will
send back a message requiring an OK confirmation. Your OK goes to the
listserver machine, not to the list of people (see below on usernames
to disguish the two). Keep in mind that some sites have broken mailers
and broken DNS machinery (faulty MX records); that would be a local problem
to be resolved at your end.
	Joe D.
--------------
Here's my standard "subscribe" blurb:

[Floyd: snipped, but contained in the first message in this file]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:48:45 -0500
From: "Glenn A. Malling" <gmalling@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject: Novell list to become Send= Private

A few weeks back the usenet control message necessary to make
the NOVELL mailing list the moderator of bit.listserv.novell
was propagated across usenet.  It is now time to announce the
dropping of the other shoe.  In a week or two the mailing list,
novell@listserv.syr.edu, will become a Send= Private list.  That
means that the list will not accept your post unless you are
subscribed to the list with the address in the From: line of
the post.

Ah, I see you are back down from the ceiling.  Please read on
before you start composing that hate mail.  Being subscribed
to the list does NOT mean that you have to receive mail from
the list.  What follows is what you will need to do to get
the mailing list to accept your posts while you continue to
read the Novell traffic via your news reader or a local
re-distribution list.

A) Readers of bit.listserv.novell

   a) Make sure that your news reader and your email program use
      same address in the From: line of your news postings and
      email messages and that you can actually receive mail at
      that address.

   b) Send email to listserv@listserv.syr.edu with the following
      LISTSERV command in the body of the message.

	SUBSCRIBE NOVELL <your> <full> <name>

      Substituting your full name without the angle brackets where shown.

   c) LISTSERV will respond by sending a subscription confirmation
      message to the address in the From: line of the message you sent
      in step (b).

      You confirm your subscription by replying to the confirmation
      message with a simple "ok."  "ok" should be the only thing in
      the body of this message.  Omit the quotation marks around the
      ok and DO NOT INCLUDE the text of the message that you received.

      If your email program does not preserve the contents of the
      Subject: line on a reply you will need to include the "magic
      cookie" on the "ok" command.  The "magic cookie" can be found
      in the Subject: line of the subscription confirmation message
      that LISTSERV sent to you.  It's a short string of hexidecimal
      digits.  In this case the content of your reply would be:

       ok <magic cookie>

       Again, omit the angle brackets.

    d) Upon receipt of your "ok" command LISTSERV will add you to the
       list and send you its usual welcome messages.  By default
       you will now have a "digest" subscription to the Novell list.
       Since you undoubtedly wish to continue using your news reader
       you now will want to disable any mail messages.  You can do so
       by sending a message to listserv@listserv.syr.edu  with the
       following command in the body of the message.

       SET NOVELL NOMAIL NOACK

       NOMAIL will turn off the mail messages from the mailing list.
       NOACK will turn off LISTSERV's acknowledgement message that
       is normally sent to you when you post to the list.  LISTSERV
       will send you a status message about your subscription showing
       your current options.  It will also send you ( one time only )
       the current digest accumulation.

B) Readers of local news groups

If your local mail to news gateway is set up correctly everything will
continue to work as it has in the past.  However if your gateway is not
set up correctly your posts will not be accepted by the Novell mailing
list and you will need to subscribe to the mailing list in the same way
as the readers of bit.listserv.novell described above.  Your gatemaster
can write to me for details on the correct setup if he wishes.  I do not
want to broadcast them on the mailing list.

C) Readers of Novell list email carried by local re-distribution lists

You have two choices:

    a) You can establish a "silent" subscription as described for the
       readers of bit.listserv.novell above and continue to use your
       local re-distribution list or

    b) You can unsubscribe from your local re-distribution list and
       subscribe directly to novell@listserv.syr.edu.  You can do so
       by carrying out steps (b) and (c) described above.

We are also going to institute subscription renewal processing for the
mailing list.  LISTSERV keeps track of the date of your last Novell
list related message.  This can be either a posting to the list or
a change in your subscription options.  Each subscriber will be asked
to renew his subscription 6 months after the last time LISTSERV sees
something from you.  If you are a regular poster you will never be
asked to renew your subscription.  If you are a lurker you will be
sent a renewal notice every six months.  The renewal notice contains
the necessary instructions for renewing your subscription.

We are making these changes to combat spam, off-topic posts, and
hit-and-run posts.  How?  Quite frankly by making it inconvenient to
post to the list and hence more trouble that it's worth for those
not committed to participation in the discussion.

Glenn A. Malling <gmalling@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Syracuse University Computing Services   +1 (315) 443-4111
220 Machinery Hall  Syracuse, New York 13244-1260

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:53:12 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Routing problem with 2 NICs

	<details omitted>
>To Joe and the others: there seem to be quite a lot of questions
>concerning IP addressing and routing on this list. Since this is a
>Novell list, I wonder if there is any good mailinglist concerned with
>IP and/or routing as such?
----------
	Yes, too much for us. There are NEWS groups devoted to the topic.
However, none is a substitute for learning the basics. For learning we
still highly recommend exercising the Mark I eyeball rather than fingers.

	The major problem with most current reading material is not being
geared for folks who understand little to nothing about networking. Jargon
gets in the way (What, for example, is meant by keyword "network?"). Douglas
Comer's books are nice but the information is scattered and not focused on
the immediate problem folks face. Novell's TCP/IP manual for NW is ok, but
still fails to come to grips with the audience and their immediate problems.
	At best we have to say "monkey see, monkey do" by providing the
least set of rules to be followed, plus a few examples. Subnet examples
we have, the necessity to avoid RIP and instead use GATEWAY= is not yet
ingrained in the population, the idea that a gateway must be on the local
IP network has not sunk in.
	In the end I arrive at the conclusion that networking isn't simple,
and depth of understanding is required to fit pieces together.
	Yet depth is lacking for many people, and they don't know how to get
it easily. Of all places on the net I think this list goes to the most trouble
to provide some depth on IP matters for the average person. Were Novell to
commission some of us to write a short "how to, must do" doc on IP maybe
that would help.
	In the meanwhile, pointing people at NEWS groups and the Novell TCP/IP
manual are worthwhile. We sense that this problem will get worse for a long
time as the average technical skill level continues to drop (everyone and
their dog gets into the networking business).
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:17:07 +0100
From: "David W. Hanson" <hansond@AFRC.GARMISCH.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Win95 files and Netware Question -Reply

>>>>>>If I have a *few* users (4-6) running windows 95 and the rest
>>>>>>runnning windows 3.x, would they be able to share files back and
>>>>>>forth?
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, may I suggest asking in a Windows forum rather than this
>>>>>Novell NetWare group.
>>>>>   Joe D.
>>>>
>>>>I disagree with Joe on this.
>>>
>>>I couldn't agree more with Joe's response.
>>
>>   Whats really stupid is you guys probably waste twice as much
>>bandwidth/energy telling people to take their questions elsewhere than
>>it would have taken to answer the question in the first place.
>>
> I agree 100%.  Joe and company waste more bandwidth responding to
> misdirected post than the post themselves.

But they are doing it for a specific reason.  What they are doing is
investing bandwidth/energy in keeping the list on-topic.  If they
were to instead reply with an answer, they would just encourage
off-topic postings.

Why not eliminate all of the mailing lists/newsgroups and just have a
mega-giant free-for-all called "computers" for any computer-related
subject?  No, of course not.  If you want to keep the "experts"
interested and active on the list (and I really think you do), then
you need to keep the list on topic.

Personally, I am sick and tired of people posting the same questions
that have been asked several times in the last several days.  Instead
of researching, they are just typing a request, assuming that they
are the only people who have ever had that question.  Now -that- is a
waste of bandwidth.  And it is *lazy* *anti-social* behavior.

My apologies for consuming more bandwith on this thread, but some
folks just don't understand the basic concept of a mailing list.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:20:42 +0100
From: "David W. Hanson" <hansond@AFRC.GARMISCH.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: How many users?

>I'm thinking of starting another novell list at my site.  If anyone is
>tired of the never-ending rude remarks on this list let me know. I think
>I'll call it NOVELL-SAY-WHAT-YOU-THINK-NO-FLAMERS-OR-DEVAS-ALLOWED

I don't know how long you have been following the list, but maybe
some historical perspective will help.

I think that the rude remarks you see are still a hangover from the
days when the newsgroup was gated to the list.  The amount of
non-related questions was incredible!

People were posting questions, -any- questions without doing -any-
research, or making -any- effort to analyze the problem, define the
problem, read the FAQ, or lurk and see.  These became known as
"drive-by" questions (sort of an analogy to drive-by shootings).

The list was becoming the first stop for many people in their quest
for solutions, and the list was in danger of collapsing under the
weight of so many non-related questions.

People start looking at the list as a magical oracle, which it is
not.  It is (should be!) a group of people who share common
interests and problems, where the capable use their experience to
help the less experienced.

It is a cooperative effort, where one should try to somehow give back
to the list what one has gained from it.  If one is not able to
contribute with knowledge, then one can -certainly- contribute by
making sure that every posting is well thought out and researched
-before- it is posted.  90% of the time, one will discover that
posting is unnecessary, once the groundwork has been done.

You see, when the signal-to-noise ratio gets bad enough, the
qualified people stop listening/helping, and you end up with a
rumour list instead of a technical list.

So, now that the gateway has been made one-way, we have seen a
significant improvement in s/n.  And we -should- see fewer rude
answers.

But if someone -is- rude, why take it personally?  It reflects poorly
on them, not you!  Are you sure you want to walk away from the level
of experience on this list, just because you don't like the tone of
some of the messages?  Personally, I am willing to suffer some
rudeness for the sake of technical excellence.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:54:51 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Opportunity in Saudi -Reply

	These head hunters, particularly the Saudi-$$$ kind, are not
offering the group anything. They are here to exploit the list to their
advantage as free advertizing and return nothing. How many of you have
even been close to Saudi Arabia? (At least I've been next door, and next
month will be nearby again.) Are you *really* looking for a job, or just
playing around? I thought so.
	The newspapers, trade rags, NEWS for gosh sakes, are full of job
openings for millions and millions of people every day, in the US and
abroad. This list is not the place to carry that free advertizing, not
for headhunters, not for used/stolen gear, not for cheap-memory, not for
hot deals on 8 port hubs, not for make-fools-fast, nor any number of
things in the world.
	I'm informed that this particular outfit has subscribed to the
list, which is interesting and good. That means they may want to contact
individuals by direct addressing after reading references; that's both
good and not so good, your choice. NEWS has areas dedicated to openings
available, jobs wanted, resumes, and so on, and those areas are effective.
We aren't NEWS. The employment folks (many of whom are good) know how to
contact people directly (believe me, just answer my phone for awhile).
So job hunters, this is your chance to strut your stuff and be noticed;
do something neat and useful for folks.
	What would have been much better would be for their company to
contact me and ask would this blurb be appropriate? If it said something
like "Jobs'R Us and please contact us if interested and you can take the
heat" then it would be closer to acceptability. These guidelines apply to
vendors large and small who make neat stuff many of us use with our servers
and clients (some comes in Red Boxes), and should apply to the headhunters
too.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:27:20 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Opportunity in Saudi

>>>	Pardon me, but that's BS. There ARE lists, but apparently you
>>>are not bothering to move a finger to look. This isn't the place for
>>>job adverts, nor forsale signs, and so on.
>>>	Joe D.
>
>Joe as the moderator you should be a little more docile towards people.
>We're not here to fight but to lear and help.  If there is such a list,
>instead of biting people's heads off, just post a message with the name of
>the list we should be subscribed to, and kindly ask "posters" to post to
>that list.

	Ok, I'll even do the finger walking exercise for you guys too.

	comp.forsale
	comp.forsale.computers
	comp.jobs
	comp.jobs.offered

	Your daily newspaper.
	Your telephone book for employment specialists.
	Any of the industry trade shows, both national and traveling.

	My temper gets short on matters such as this because I do not
believe 99% of the comments folks made. If they are looking for a job
then they have many contacts, and Saudi is not high on the list. If they
are just starting to look then a call to your friendly neighborhood Novell
office will likely produce a wealth of leads (as one Novell office
commented to me this morning after reading this thread). I think the
vocal folks here are blowing smoke, to be polite, and are not actively
looking for a job. They are rather hoping a job will fall into their lap,
and want entertainment along the way. Serious people go out and make
things happen.
	Now I hope this is about the last message on the thread, and let's
get back to business at hand (of which there is plenty this week).
	Joe D.
P.S. Yes, I could be wrong; I am wrong from time to time (still human,
thank goodness). See yesterday's 3Com traffic as as open an invitation
to correction as I can arrange.
P.P.S. Lest you think those NEWS groups are a joke, one of my MS grad
students got a very nice networking job through them, at a salary you
just would not believe; <insert envy here>. Other students from here have
been successful through them too.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:01:45 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unix OS

>I have a friend at work who is a Unix Administrator. He thinks that Unix
>is the Master of the Universe. He reckons there is no reason why we can't
>migrate our Netware 4 (LAN & WAN) environment to the Unix platform.
>
>I have little experience with Unix Os.
>Would anyone care to comment?
--------
	Only briefly, and suggest you first learn something about Unix and
NW file servers, and serving things in general, and in the meanwhile try a
NEWS advocacy group for unstructured discussion. To argue various means
without understanding the goals and tradeoffs is not a good use of people
time (ours) and bandwidth (ours too). As I am sure you know, this is a
Novell technical list, not a free for all (despite the recent "electrical
engineer" series). You might also look at SCO for UnixWare which combines
Unix and a NetWare 4.10 file server. But please do figure out what is to be
accomplished, measure the compromises, then see if experience validates the
choice.
	If you think I'm reacting to yet another possible emotional
advocacy situation then you are quite correct. Spare us, please.
	By the way, a handy way of setting back on their heels experts who
are insisting upon some major change is to keep asking questions, more
detailed as you go.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 21:47:02 +0000
From: "Robert B. Osbourne" <rosbourne@TOJ.COM>
Subject: (Fwd) How to stop WINMAIL.DAT attachments

I got this this email and I think it is applicable to this list also

WINMAIL.DAT - HOW TO STOP EXCHANGE FROM ATTACHING WINMAIL.DAT

A good way to piss people off on the Internet is to repeatedly fill their
mailbox with the useless WINMAIL.DAT attachments that Microsoft Exchange
insists on including. Since Exchange supports rich-text email (bold,
italic, multiple fonts, etc.), and Internet email doesn't, any email
sent from Exchange to a non-Exchange mail reader will contain an
Attachment called WINMAIL.DAT.  If you use Exchange, you won't see this
file, and the message will retain its formatting. However, it can be
confusing for those who don't use Exchange (the majority of the Internet
population), and have no use for this file. Here's how to turn it off:

Step #1:
Double-click on the Mail and Fax icon in Control Panel.
Click on the Services tab, and select Internet Mail from the list. If
Internet Mail is not listed, click Add to add this service.
Click Properties, and then Message Format.
Turn off the option that reads Use MIME when sending messages.
Click OK and then OK again.

Step #2:
Double-click on the name of the recipient in your Address Book.
Turn off the option that reads Always send to this recipient in Microsoft
rich-text format.
This option needs to be set for each recipient of a message - if even one
has this turned on, all recipients will still get the attachment.

	[Thanks Alex Sirota, adapple@apple.com for this info]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:34:48 EST
From: Bill Gruber <BIGCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: How many people are in this mailing list?

>Approx 460. At least that is what I get when I send to list.

Nope.  There are 3326 as of a few minutes ago.  The count you get when
you send to list doesn't reflect subscribers who receive the list as a
daily digest - which is the default action.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:55:07 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who are you people? -Reply

	May I suggest we table the public discussion of who is abusing whom
and so on. There are more interesting and important matters requiring our
attention and energy (not to mention cost of relaying traffic to some sites).
	If you have a problem with the list, such as the fake mail incident
today, the place to register it is with Syracuse Univ, the owner of the list
machinery and software, at email address NOVELL-REQUEST@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU.
Please don't splatter stuff on the list itself because it won't help.
	Off charter messages go into a very short queue, and when it fills
then there are ICMP Abuser Quench messages send round to remind folks to
do better next time. ICMP is Irritated Computer Manager Protocol, RFC1996.
	Generally personal insults are best done privately or on NEWS. If they
persist on this list I'm sure the list management (includes me) will find it
necessary to reluctantly unsubscribe the difficult parties. Please don't drag
me into the middle of a person to person battle because I'll likely view both
sides as guilty parties for letting matters get out of control.
	Hot and heavy technical debates are meat and potatoes of a technical
group, just as long as they are on topic and we learn something useful from
the process. And my, have we learned a lot from them over the years.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:04:21 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Appropriate posts...

>I think I have my software here misconfigured.  Judging by the last few
>digests I've received, my mail software should be configured so that:
>
> o  quoted text exceeds original text by a ratio of 25:1 (or better).
>
> o  random uuencoded (or MIME-encoded) files are appended to each
>    outgoing message. [I do mostly pre-press image processing, so the
>    files on *my* local drives tend to be REALLY huge ... I certainly
>    hope that this isn't a _strict_ requirement of participation here!]
>
> o  .sig files should be added twice, in case I have some silly joke
>    to perpetute throughout the Internet community.
>
> o  this list is included in the inter-office "joke pool" mailing list,
>    so that any/all stale, decades-old office joke(s) can also be shared
>    with the list's participants.
>
>  Joe... please let me know if I've misunderstood the function of this list.
--------
	That's a good start, but clearly your mailer lags in one vital
area: ensure it duplicates each message as an html attachment. Larger
pictures create better impressions (not everyone runs a high resolution
monitor) and pretty soon Java applets to animate messages will be necessary
for the well (ad)dressed communicator. Don't forget very large .sigs, and
the customary lines longer than 80 bytes (with a font indicated, please).
	Thanks for the checklist, and now I had better get busy bring my
mailer up to the mid-1990's.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:55:11 +0100
From: "Arthur B." <arthur-b@ZEELANDNET.NL>
Subject: Re: Appropriate posts...

Let us not forget e-mails with a very general subject line that
has no relation at all with the contents of the e-mail.

On the other hand I must say that I myself have concluded that nowadays
e-mail programs are too much auto-configuring and think that everybody
is using the same e-mail program. And usually there isn't too much info
in the documentation on how-to turn of the fancy stuff.

Maybe a small reply to the sending party explaining in what state their
e-mail reached the receiving party and maybe even some instructions on
how to prevent it might help more.

Say Joe. Any insight on how to attach a Java applet to my e-mails?
<g>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:48:53 +0100
From: "Arthur B." <arthur-b@ZEELANDNET.NL>
Subject: Re: ABEND at LAN Information in MONITOR

>	List members. Please, please, examine your mailer to see if it is
>making these highly unwanted attachments, such as excerpted above. They
>cost money, they greatly increase the volume of the list traffic, they are
>undesired at many sites. Equally bad are messages with html copies of the
>message body; how stupid that is. We won't even mention pictures and bitmaps.
>
>	We know that such attachments may not be known to you, but they
>will be if you take the time and effort to look. It may require discussion
>with the manager of a mail gateway or similar item to tame the beast. Until
>then the appearance is the computers run us and we can't control them,
>which while true for all of us part of the time it is not the impression we
>wish to present to the world. Take charge!
>	Joe D.

To help quicken the search:

Configure your favoured e-mail browser to:
send only 'Plain text' in UUENCODE no HTML, MIME or any other format.
Let your signature only contain 'text'.
And KISS (Keep It Short and Simple).
Automaticly wrap at 77 characters at most.
Use the standard configured font and codepage.
Don't use things to bold, italic or underline parts of the text.
When you include or attach files double check the "To:" and "CC:"
field.

Maybe it would help if the FAQ would contain a small section that
sums up the recommended settings for a number of software packages.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:09:35 -0500
From: "B. Haddix" <bryanh@MAIL.PBCL.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: NOVELL Digest - 19 Feb 1997 - Special issue

> Joe, what are you doing now speaking for the whole list again. This has came
> from this is a Technical list to poor journalism is the reason that this was
> not appropriate on this list! I think that NT is viable to go on this list
> also some times, because some of us have to use it with Netware also!
>
Joe and precious few others make this list worthwhile. Without their
participation and the willing conformance of other list members to their
assumed leadership role, this list would be as worthless as all the
other "big topic" and popular listserves. Within the context of this
listserve, Joe may speak for me. And, I'm sure that the VAST majority of
participants of this list would concur.

That said, I agree that the content here should be technical in
orientation. Further, editorial opinions are not what interest me enough
to spend my time reviewing the list. In fact, I normally dislike seeing
the type of post that I am composing now, as I know that there are folks
out there who never stop arguing and that attempts at reason are futile.

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you". (a Dog)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:02:59 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Unsuspecting prey, spammers

>I recently received an email spam from someone who could have only
>gotten my email address as a result of farming it from a posting
>to this list.  The perpetrator's email address is "jayboggs@technical
>placement.com".
>
>Is there a procedure for making it clear to such perpetrators that
>it is unacceptable to do this kind of thing?  I have had to resort
>to using a bogus address to thwart such abuses on Usenet, but when I
>post to this list using Pegasus I cannot use that approach because
>Pmail requires a verifiable address field when sending messages.
>
>I have complained in the usual way to the person in question and the
>various access providers, but I would think a nasty message from
>the owner of the list, etc. might be a little more motivational. :-)
----------
	Not surprizing to me. The problems are most spammers are hit
and run, so carrying on a complaint discussion is wasting effort, and
many could care less, so there is no discussion at all. My solution is
to delete at first glance. Nastygrams take too much time and effort.
	You can send a formal request for list un-subscription to the
folks at Syracuse.
	I'm afraid that junk mail is with us for good, and it will get
lots worse. To receive lots more just post on NEWS where the robots can
find you. To receive plenty let your local machines reveal information to
probers across the Internet (start with Finger, select web pages next).
Snoops, such as the headhunter above, are something we learn to live with.
To take a positive view, they could have used up trees with paper versions.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:42:42 -0500
From: "Brien K. Meehan" <MEEHANB@DETROITEDISON.COM>
Subject: No help from newsgroup!  (was Re: NOVELL Digest...)

>Dear Whoever;
>
>I am having real problems with trying to dial out from a workstation thru
>a novell 3.12a server and have submitted posts requesting help.  NOTICE I
>said DIAL OUT.  IPX/SPX settings refer to dial in connectivity.  These
>pleas for help have gone unpublished by you and I was wondering why.

Because you either have a minute understanding of how networks work, or
you're an idiot.  In either case, most contributors to this list aren't
inclined to give you free help that you wouldn't understand.

I remember a couple people giving you advice, and you refuted it!  Who the
hell would want to help you after that?  If you had a snotty attitude AND
were competent, that might even be acceptable - but if you're a snot and
you clearly don't know what you're talking about, forget it!

Maybe you should ask us for your money back.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:50:11 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: A view on the list's content, reasonably short

	As the title says, I'd like to express a view on what I think
ought to be concerns of the list, and what probably ought not be.
	My view is the list is a private forum for discussing Novell
technical information. It is not a Help Desk nor a replacement for Novell's
Tech Support facility. It is not a NEWS group where anything goes; it is a
private list sponsored in part by Novell.
	That means we want to discuss quirks and puzzles and frustrations
and features etc of Novell's products, and so on. But we aren't here to help
folks look up error messages or read their Monitor screen or other self-help
items, nor to create server installations for free, nor tell how to connect to
the Internet, nor even to give free advice on which server machine to purchase.
Yes, we certainly help each other over rough spots. But before that we expect
the person with difficulties has first gone to some trouble to resolve them
locally.
	The incidence of requests of the Help Desk variety has grown, and it
is straining the patience of the list readership (at least my piece of it).
Similarly, we see more vacuuous msgs, a la NEWS, which are best left unsent
and unread.
	If you happen to agree with this view, more or less, then I suggest
we let drop those requests which are of the Help Desk etc variety and let's
concentrate on the harder and more interesting problems. This is not to
discourage new comers to Novell products, but it should cause such people to
pause and do some homework before asking common questions. Damsels (and
Knights) in real distress are always welcome, provided they've done their
self-help part first.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:43:06 +0200
From: "Ing. Jan Chochola" <jchochola@DEMSYS.CZ>
Subject: Netiquette

Hello, everyone.

Thank you VERY much for the list and info we can share.=20
I found a lot of useful information here.

Although being a greenhorn 'Net-ter I'm going to risk being
flamed up. I realized:

- Many of you read the FAQ and use its answers.
- Joe Doupnik is said Net-God and we listen to his network
  experience almost open-mouthed. (Not exactly, but...he
  got his authority, didn't he?)
- He, Maxwell Floyd (FAQsMan), and all the FAQ staff politely
  ask for appropriate line lengths, short signatures, etc in the FAQ.
- Those advices seem not infulence many of you.

Why? Cut lines are almost unreadable to everyone (how
long you read your daily portion of digests? how many times
you've skip those messages, that may contain perls somwhere
deep in the mud?). ASCII pseudographic pictures hide your=20
names, addresses, etc. And in these days of GUIwhelming,=20
proportional fonts of our mail readers distort your=20
nicely-planned logos. There might be a mail problem last week,
I didn't get my digest, but why ask thousands immediately?
(Keep waiting a while. Its easy to get HELP from listserv.=20
Quite short message, below half a second of processing time.=20
If this doesn't work, there's something wrong and no NOVELL
list mail to be expected now.)


Shouldn't we re-read our messages before we lose control
over them? The rules are not too strict and have a solid
ground, I think.=20

Regards,
Jan (jchochola@demsys.cz)

(Sorry for my long czEnglish text.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:58:35 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: List behavior

	Before you send another message to the list, ask yourself

	a) Is the topic appropriate to the Novell technical list?
Off topic material must go elsewhere. Never send binaries to the list.
Flames go elsewhere too.

	b) Have I tried to solve the problem locally? That includes
reading manuals, running local tests, talking with others nearby.
Too often messages ask for someone else to do the work, and that is
not the way we do business on this listserver.

	c) Am I giving enough context for others to understand? Often
people fail to relate the version of the product, which wastes time
of everyone. Selected pieces of configuration files help. Ask youself
if others could reproduce the situation from what you stated in the
message, and if not then revise the message. View matters from the
perspective of the reader.

	d) Is this a question about the listserver machinery itself?
If yes then don't send it to the list of people, send it only to the
listserver machine: listserv@listserv.syr.edu. Try one line HELP to
get started.

	Thanks,
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:17:02 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Raid & plunder thread

>>The point is Mr. Ass, I've been in computers over 20 years.
>
>I don't see how that's relevent, unless - are you trying to out-ass me?
>Then I concede - you are clearly the superior ass.
<<SNIP>>
-------
	At this point I feel obliged to step in and ask for a little
peace and quiet, because otherwise you guys will steal my privilege
of being the favorite target of nasty comments. We couldn't let that
happen.
	Let us concede that there are uses for NetWare dump files, though
those uses are rare, and that hence some folks prefer large DOS partitions
and other folks prefer somewhat smaller DOS partitions. At the rate patches
are inflating we will all end up with large DOS partitions, with definition
of "large" left as an exercise for the system manager.
	Let us also concede that some of us have been computing for two
or more decades, and a not necessarily disjoint set are of the donkey
persuation (often well deservedly so, but we digress).
	Finally, in shouting matches I find graphics mode most convenient
because one can keep choosing larger and larger fonts, adding bold,
italics, blinking, full Java animation (covered above, discretely) etc
to make the impact greater yet. Never mind that it's "making the rubble
bounce." It's too bad that while we have Windows we don't have Tables to
pound. Maybe next year.
	We will remember that while you haven't disarmed you have offered
to point the weapons in another direction.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:17:20 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: List traffic and rules

	May I make a few suggestions at this time?

	There is far too much traffic on the list this month and it drives
away subscribers. Let's reduce it signficiantly and hence increase the
signal to noise ratio.

	This is not a Help Desk or Tech Support facility or social club.
It is a Novell technical discussion group. That means when you encounter a
problem do not use the list as your first or even second step. Solve the
problem locally as best you can, and after making a good attempt and after
reading the Novell manuals and the list's FAQ then consider bringing
questions to the list. Please do your homework before coming here. Work
carefully and use good judgment about when to stop and review the matter
here.

	Second, before answering the simple questions wait a short amount
of time to see if the question has been answered already. Add information
if necessary but please don't *repeat* the obvious stuff. It's like
committees spending most of their time on the tiny items.

	Third, please reduce the amount of "included" text in responses,
and for gosh sakes turn off html, mime, and windows trash in your mail
agent.

	Fourth, when you have a good idea or significant finding we are
interested, please share with us your efforts and experiences.

	Thanks,
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:33:41 -0500
From: Israel Forst <iforst@BWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: List traffic and rules

Joe

Let me first preface this by saying that I respect your opinion and
usually enjoy reading your postings. I find them informative and
usually accurate. On the other hand I don't think you are in the
position to dictate what should be posted here.

This is a public forum which may be a Novell Technical discussion
group to you but I do see it as a social club, a social club for
inteligent people who come together to discuss issues and exchange
ideas with one another. While I agree with you that it is rude for
students or beginners to post questions that are rather annoying
to the rest of us, I for one have found that almost every piece of
information I have been exposed here are not in any book, nor any
FAQ, nor any place other than a bunch of Engineers putting their
smarts together to help solve some amazing issues.

[Floyd: You obviously have not read the FAQ files yet, Mr. Forst]

When I first subscribed to this group, I would answer every question
I could and read every posting, no matter how silly. At some point I
slowly realized that it was a waste of my time to answer a question
that I thought someone else could answer. Now I peruse through the
list and see if anything piques my interest. Should I see something
that I have experienced and resolved, or something I did not resolve,
I contribute. I don't think you can insist that no one posts questions
unless they exhaust all other resources. I think that us posters
should not answer questions we think do not belong on the list. So
if you see a simple question, just ignore it, EVERYONE! and it will
go away. On the other hand when you do reply, DO include text. It can
be rather hard to figure out what the reply is refering to. You need
not include the entire thread but definitely the message you are
responding to. If the volume of messages is annoying you, enable
filters on your mail reader and you can sort your mail based on
poster, subject or what ever you want. This is how I have dealt with
the increased volume

---------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:50:31 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: List traffic and rules

[Mr. Horst's previous message, quoting Joe D.'s full text, and
 with Mr. Forst's stupid Vcard.VCF -- all sent twice!!! -- snipped]
--------
	Sorry, the arriving lines are infinitely long.
	I didn't say what you attribute to me. I said there is too much
traffic at this time. I said this isn't a Help Desk or Tech Support
facility, nor a social club. That's true. It isn't NEWS. It is a
privately operated listserver with a purpose in life; it costs real
money to operate and maintain. Expecting people to use their own
resources first is good advice, and one which relieves us of doing
their work for them. That does not prevent folks from asking questions,
nor does it relieve them of the duty of doing homework first.
	Quite honestly, the high traffic rate drives away people and
consumes too much time during working hours for those who try to keep
current. We can reduce the traffic without losing quality or content
and thereby actually increase the usefulness of the list.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:20:23 +0600
From: Alex Parkhome <alexparkhome@WRITEME.COM>
Subject: Re: List traffic and rules

Joe.

I really appreciate your part in this list and I do sure that you're
one of the most informed and wise people here.  But let's compare you
and me.

You are a serious researcher with a lot of experience, direct link
to Novell, huge reputation and forth, forth...

I'm just a beginner, who sometimes pushes a wall like a blind kitten,
and sometimes doesn't know essential things, in your opinion.  I live
in country where the nearest CNE could be found only in the capital
city.  Where near all the NetWare copies are OEM installed and
resellers often can't answer the simplest questions. And what's more,
there is a lot of pirate copies of Novell products here, because most
companies couldn't afford to buy $5,000 software programs.

My Internet costs more than $20 per hour, but before I post questions,
especially stupid ones, to the list, I harvest all the possible
knowledge bases, Novell, Dell, Intel, etc. and spending nights at
work, trying to solve problems using my experience, not so big yet...

And last... Don't you remember yourself at the beginning of your
career?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:47:37 +0100
From: "Arthur B." <arthur-b@ZEELANDNET.NL>
Subject: Replica and Partition Operations of DSREPAIR

Following up on the messages concerning DSREPAIR.

TID2909077 is recommended reading. Find it by visiting URL

	http://support.novell.com/search/kb_index.htm

and give it "2909077" to search for.  Feel free to make use of the
same search engine to gather more info on terms and definitions you
don't feel comfortable with.

* Important *
This TID also contains info about the consequences of certain DSREPAIR
actions and when to use them. It refers to TID2909062 and TID2909092 as
well.

For those of you new to Netware, I've learned Netware by putting time
in testservers and reading TID's.  TID stands for Technical Information
Document.  There's a lot of troubleshooting insights in them.

Also, the listgroup you're reading this on will prove very insightful
indeed. Should be, given its technical nature.

If overwhelmed by the words used simply go to the given URL. Learn by
reading and observing. In time (shorter then you think) you'll be a
more knowledgable person. Add some more time and you'll be able to
return the favor.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:12:28 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Maybe a new list is needed?  Re: C2 rating, Novell's certificate

>I think many folks take Joe's comments/tripes/call it what you will
>way to seriously.  Who really cares what Joe D. thinks, who cares
>what I think?  The point is that we are all here to help each other.
>I know Joe and others have done a tremendous amount of work on this
>list and the FAQ but maybe it is time to hand some things over guys.
>Rik Thomas

	Well put Rik. My perspective is accurate information first, then
maybe we can get around to being chums. Inaccurate info needs correction
fast, before misimpressions are created. Damage occurs when folks believe
and act on misinformation, or lack of enough good info. I react quickly
to misinfo on the list, when I know its wrong, and I try to fill in missing
pieces at a slower rate.
	What I believe is of interest to one person, me. What I say should
be examined for credibility before being accepted. Ditto for each of us.
It's not touchy-feely here, better nice than right, it's engineering and
and management and problem solving and shear survival at times with a
collective goal of learning from our experiences.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:17:39 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Maybe a new list is needed?  Re: C2 rating, Novell's certificate

>>Possibly a second one that isn't hell bent on Novell only solutions
>>but on intelligent solutions or solutions that we as network
>>professionals are forced to live with will help.  Email me and let
>>me know.
>>
>>Can't we all just get along?  Some folks need to get out of their
>>insular world (be it academic or business) and realize that some
>>of us just don't do networking, we can't know everything.  If I was
>>paid to know one thing, I would probably be just like Joe or others
>>on this list.  But my clients demand that I know Novell, Microsoft,
>>UNIX, Linux, LANServer, not to mention all of the hardware in between,
>>along with phones, etc.
>
>I've looked several times for a list like this that was a bit more
>broadly focused -- targetting servers and server environments in
>general, not just one brand, and attended by people who can look at
>both sides of an issue.  People who have real experience with multiple
>brands and technologies.  I would definitely follow such a list.
>
>FWIW, I suspect Joe D's experience is much broader than just NetWare,
>and he would be a valuable contributor.
>
>>Rik Thomas
--------
	Be my guest, meant positively. There needs to be focused accurate
lists on specialized topics, as contrasted to the uncontrolled environment
typlified by say Internet News groups. I am a member of other of lists, and
I am so to learn and help pull an oar.
	NW is a major side issue with me, as it probably is with many others,
but one where a lot is at stake and I want things to come out well. To help
ensure they do come out well I put my body where my mouth is, and do and
urge others to do and so on rather than just say "I want", over the long haul.
If you wish I'm a person behind supporting UnixWare, and I deal with plenty of
other kinds of systems too. (Check the ack's in Rich Steven's new book on
Unix Network Programming). That's accumulated experience paying off, as it
finally does after huge personal investments. You may accurately translate
that into I've made your mistakes, probably several times over, and finally
figured out which way is North, as well as I read other reports and try to
distill the wisdom before proceeding on my own. These are all means to ends
by my standards, fun and painful though they may be.
	Accurate information is important, highly so. Thus whenever one of
us slips the other folks are expected to put matters right. Each of us
makes mistakes, or I certainly do, and I expect challenges to perceived
wisdom to be the normal way of making progress fast. To those who regard
challenges and being brought up short as life-threatening, I suggest finding
a different kind of work. It's not us personally that is important in this
business, but our sites and beyond (what we can do for the business).
	Ok, so you want an example. Here's one in this week's traffic. Win95
advertising SAPs as a fake NW file server. It's a serious problem, I and a
few others were deeply concerned and took action about 2.5 years ago. This
week there are hints that maybe, unconfirmed yet, that Win95 OSR2 might be
better behaved. That would be terrific news, about which I want more info.
If true we could modify warnings appropriately and improve the FAQ. Some
correspondents indeed challenged my statements, and with good cause because
their observations indicated no trouble. Atta boy. That's fine, I encourage
it when some facts or deeper thinking is available. In the end we will
discover what's correct and what is only urban legend or outdated material,
and it will likely not be especially polite during the sorting out phase.
	You want to know why I brought up short Mike on the C2 stuff? I said
it in the message: origin of the scanned image is unknown to him and it was
not acceptable to tell folks it was in the Public Domain and thus free for
uncontrolled distribution (Randy's question). I doubt the certificate itself
is in that category, though its existence is public record. Here I try to help
boost morale amongst the troops and someone runs amok with the info. Couple
that with the sensitive subject of NDS4NT and the serious struggle it
represents. It's not personal; it's facts on important issues. Mike does a
really good job otherwise, and I have never said the contrary. So please
stop choosing up sides and being huffy or defensive; that doesn't fit here
and nobody needs it.
	Now let's get back to business as usual. If we talk less maybe folks
will read more, so appologies for using up your reading allotment.
	Thanks,
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:16:00 -0700
From: Hansang Bae <hbae@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Maybe a new list is needed? Re: C2 rating, Novell's certificate

Rik Thomas:
>Possibly a second one that isn't hell bent on Novell only solutions but on
>intelligent solutions or solutions that we as network professionals are
>forced to live with will help.  Email me and let me know.

Well, I for one am a fan of this list.  I don't participate as much here
since there are so many competent folks.  One other Newsgroup of
interest (about the same signal/noise ratio - if not higer) is
comp.dcom.lans.ethernet.  HIGHLY recommended if you *really* want to
know about Ethernet networking in general.

When I say Ethernet, I mean 802.3.

---------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:50:28 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ethernet list

>Well, I for one am a fan of this list.  I don't participate as much here
>since there are so many competent folks.  One other Newsgroup of
>interest (about the same signal/noise ratio - if not higer) is
>comp.dcom.lans.ethernet.  HIGHLY recommended if you *really* want to
>know about Ethernet networking in general.
>
>When I say Ethernet, I mean 802.3.
----------
	Concur. That is *the* place to go when questions arise on details
of Ethernet. There simply is no substitute for the resolutions that appear
there, often by the folks who either designed the equipment or help write
the specs. It's not about to setup lan adapters for NW or similar, for which
there are other forums. If you are wondering what's this VLAN stuff appearing
in recent fancy Ethernet boards, as an example, or Fast Ethernet vs VGAnyLAN,
or GigaHertz Ethernet, or are switches really nirvana, please visit that
Internet News group. I learn a lot from it and add clippings to my class
notes.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:33:55 -0500
From: Debbie Becker <dbecker@CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Maybe a new list is needed?  Re: C2 rating, Novell's certificate

>I am really torn on this issue.  I have learned an amazing amount from this
>list, the FAQ, Joe and others from this list.  Joe is a professor, and as
>with many professor have their own way of doing things.  He definitely
>acts/writes/speaks like a professor and it seems like he is way to used to
>dealing with college age kids.  Joe feels (rightly so) that one should read
>the material provided to us by Novell, other vendors, FAQ, and the other
>web sites that is out there.  Just look at some of my guys foreheads...they
>have bookmarks on them...
>
>I think many folks take Joe's comments/tripes/call it what you will - way
>to seriously.  Who really cares what Joe D. thinks, who cares what I think?
> The point is that we are all here to help each other.  I know Joe and
>others have done a tremendous amount o work on this list and the FAQ but
>maybe it is time to hand some things over guys.  If this list really
>bothers you that much, hand over some of the responsibilities to others or
>put procmail or other filtering device into effect.  Or simply ignore it.
>
>Or I am willing to set up a new kindler gentler Networking mailing list for
>those that want a safe haven from being flamed.  Let me know via email and
>we can go from there.  I will never leave this list as it is far to
>valuable to me.
>Possibly a second one that isn't hell bent on Novell only solutions but on
>intelligent solutions or solutions that we as network professionals are
>forced to live with will help.  Email me and let me know.
>
>Can't we all just get along?  Some folks need to get out of their insular
>world (be it academic or business) and realize that some of us just don't
>do networking, we can't know everything.  If I was paid to know one thing,
>I would probably be just like Joe or others on this list.  But my clients
>demand that I know Novell, Microsoft, UNIX, Linux, LANServer, not to
>mention all of the hardware in between, along with phones, etc.  Come to my
>house and play awhile...

I've checked out a bunch of Novell lists in the past, and unless things
have changed dramatically, this list really *is* a pretty "kind, gentle"
list. I've seen folks flamed on other lists with language that scorches my
ears (and I'm told my language is a *whole* lot less than lady-like
sometimes!) The reprimands issued by Joe and others are pretty mild as
lists go.

I'm also of the opinion that you should be willing to take the criticism
dished out if you're willing to post answers -- none of us know everything
and we should be willing to look at other sides of the question. I've
avoided being handed my head a couple of times by not responding
immediately to something when I thought that I *might* know something about
it (but realized that I was passing on info or hazarding an educated guess)
by waiting for a day or so to see what other answers might come up. If the
matter's still up for discussion I then feel free to post my opinion (and
usually preface it by saying that "I've heard that.." or some such
disclaimer -- yeah, I know that this makes me a "typical" female in a male
environment, but so what?!?). You'll notice that I'm quite verbal (and
definite) about topics that I know like the back of my hand!

Mike's contributed a lot of good info to the list, but sometimes his
postings are a little off-base as well -- and unless you really know the
topic, you probably won't realize that information is inaccurate if it's
presented authoritatively. If Mike's feelings are hurt, he's certainly
entitled to take his toys and go home -- that's an option that's open to
all of us.

On the other hand, perhaps he'll continue to participate, but to weigh his
some of his answers just a little more before posting.

---------

Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:36:13 -0600
From: Andrew Hagen <ahagen@POP.ISDFA.SEI-IT.COM>
Subject: Re: Maybe a new list is needed?  Re: C2 rating, Novell's certifi

You might check out the Usenet comp.os.netware.* groups. Like
this group, they are full of generous, helpful people. Additionally,
the Novell Support Forums at http://support.novell.com/pforum/ are in
beta testing.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:26:50 -0500
From: "Gerd W. Voss" <voss@CASCOMP.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: News Updates

Mike Glassman wrote:
>I was just wondering if there is even any interest in the
>publication in this group of news releases or product flashes from
>Novell, or whether this was something that is a waste of time ? I'd
>like some feedback on this please <snip>

Mike,
Since you ask ...
No interest in news flashs here. I have mutiple sources of info for
various platforms which meet my needs . I think that the generic new
patches info and copies of " they said and then they replied"
material is not needed on this list. Nice effort though.

Another way of I look at this is that there are many  very competant
experianced members of this list ..they keep track of the buzz and
current events in their own successful ways. They share their work.

I gain from this list when a member obtains current NOVELL patches,
versions, new tools, installs the material, researchs the results and
posts their results to the list. Some members have more resources and
staff to allow immediate testing of new material then I have.

Observation: I have found that on various lists there is a phase of
membership where individuals can get very involved and spend
considerable  time answering every post and pointing all the
material they persue to the list. I am sure it is well meant and
may come from a sense of belonging and sharing. Psyc majors step up,
This is from my observation / experiance.

One can also have great confidence in their skills and want to share
them.. I have done this, on this list and others.

I needed, and received,  correction when this phase of list
membership caused me to shoot from the hip too much, read posts too
lightly, and overstep my real experiance for the sake of answering
with something,  the current buzz or the bold headline in a trade
rag.  I thank the those who took the time to " alert" me  ... now.

I have found it is a fine line between being helpful or overbearing
and boring.

The best advice I received was to do my own work,  all of it.
If I hit the wall and fail, go back and double check my
thinking and steps, Then ask for help in the appropriate places.
This has taught me to think, try,  throw away broken things and that
I am not so smart. The taste of humble pie is never going to be great
but I can swallow it now.

I am still a bit wordy ..members please excuse the long post and if
the shoe fits ..so be it.

---------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:12:10 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: News Updates

>Yes....unless there is another place that this information is easily
>accessible without having to sift through tons of information to find it.
	    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	No. Very selective information is fine, but this is not NEWS, nor
a marketing channel nor a trade rag in electronic form. I thought I was
very clear about there being too much traffic already and the consequence
of losing people and folks not reading what is present. In addition, just
to remind folks, this list is sponsored in part by Novell itself and they
impose tight restrictions on their own announcements to the list. The list
management has discussed the matter a number of times, with the result that
frequent announcements, jobs, commercials etc are not wanted.
	I suggest Mike compile a list of pointers to places and have it
included in the FAQ. If he wants to start another list or a favorites web
page or similar external reference spot that's fine and could be valuable.
But please don't load down this list with all that stuff.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

