
------------------------------------------------
NW5.DOC -- 19980327 -- Email thread on NetWare 5
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	Feel free to add or edit this document and then email
	it back to faq@jelyon.com




Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:24:19 -0600
From: Karl Klemm <khklemm@AMOCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Netware SMP Enhanced Debugger

>>I'm having a problem with my Novell Netware 4.11 server.  Sometimes when
>>I load or  unload a NLM my server hangs and then I get a weird screen
>>with the title Netware SMP Enhanced Debugger.
>>
>>Can anybody tell me why my server goes to this screen and what is Netware
>>SMP Enhanced Debugger?
>
>Hey, I got one of them today too!  This was on a Micron that came
>preloaded with Netware.  I got the message while trying to figure out
>why I can go into load install, products, display options.  Whenever
>I got into product, I get a screen about the location to load something
>but I can't load anything....it's strange!

My guess is that you are using SMP -- assumedly with 2 or more
processors.  A "feature" of SMP NetWare is that when the system abends
(as I've been told), it will fall into the SMP debugger instead of
displaying the now familiar abend screen.  (I take care of a couple of
SMP systems and that is where I've found them after page faults).  You
can then use one of the many debugger commands to get information
and/or take a core dump before restarting.  Some of the more helpful
debugger commands that I've found include:

 ?	Current memory address and module that was running when
	the system abended.  (Not always the "cause" of the abend,
	just the code that was running -- could be cause by other
	code that stepped on the address indicated.)

 .a	Displays the "abend" message with a few other pieces of
	info.

 v	Cycles you through the current screens so you can see what
	may have been displayed on them.  You will need to press
	a key to move from one screen to the next.

 .c	Lets you perform a coredump to a DOS addressable device --
	ie. a local hard disk, floppy, JAZ drive.  (NOTE: on my
	Micron NF9016 w/512 MB RAM, it takes about 45 minutes to
	dump the memory to disk).

Because of the loss of Abend recovery and that relatively few
processes run on the second processor (need to check with the NLM
vendor or monitor when the system is up), some are reconsidering
whether to use SMP now or in NW5.0.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:05:26 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NW5 Beta

>Just curious if anyone in the group has tested the NW5 Beta yet.
>I'm wondering how you like it, relative to 4.1x. Are there any glaring
>changes, etc? Any feedback will do.
>
>We are at a point where we are needing to upgrade to 4.11 for Y2K compliance
>or wait for NW5.
-------
	Have used it since alpha 1, now at beta 2. What we see even in beta 2
is not what will be the final NW 5 because lots is being worked on as we speak.
Beta 3 will be about the first decent look at the core o/s, where most things
present will actually work, yet there are many items to be added between then
and formal release. Novell's preprelease blurbs should be read, taken with the
usual grain of salt, and looked at as the target composition.
	In terms of look and feel: much like NW 4 but better. GUI fans can
consume memory and cpu cycles, if that makes them feel better. Look beyond
the core o/s for the nifty features, such as NSS and NRS and DHCP/DNS in
directory services, Java, LDAP, and much more. Heck, if we were MS we would
be touting this as an applications server.
	Personally (cash value $0.02) I think NW 5 is going to be a really
dandy server o/s. But don't judge it from these early betas.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:38:01 +0000
From: Phil Randal <philr@HWCCES.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: NW5 Beta

>Just curious if anyone in the group has tested the NW5 Beta yet.
>I'm wondering how you like it, relative to 4.1x. Are there any glaring
>changes, etc? Any feedback will do.

I built up a test NW5 server yesterday.

Before anyone starts this process, please search Novell's
knowledgebase for "Moab".  If I'd done that, it would have saved me
many minutes of head-scratching.

Don't have country.sys in your config.sys with country other than 1,
otherwise the GUI install will hang installing NDS.

I haven't used 4.x, so I can't comment on the relative merits, but
the only apparent way to configure DHCP is via a Win95/NT utility on
a workstation.  That's bad news to me, used to sorting out problems
on WANs via RConsole.

However, I may well be mistaken in this, as the server has only had
one hour's serious use.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:49:25 -0800
From: "John E. Lyon" <jelyon@MANATEE.WUSTL.EDU>
Subject: NetWare 5 Beta

Just installed my NetWare 5 Beta. I didn't get to use the GUI install
- I don't know if that's been disabled, or they removed it. I didn't
miss it - I think the longest part of the install was finding the
drivers for the CD-ROM so I could get started.

It expires on May 31st (?!?!) - so as soon as you get it, you might
want to get started.

It doesn't look very different from xW4.1x, except for the splash
screen as the server starts. (Did somebody say "Microsoft?").

I elected to install _just_ the IP support (which requires a new
client (beta, of course), included in the set of CDs).  Unfortunately,
I couldn't add the server to our existing tree, and had to create a
new one. It's interesting to note that if I'm not logged in to the
server, I don't see it, or it's tree in network neighborhood.

There isn't a lot of features to install - I could be wrong, but it
looks like you get pretty much just the OS, the new print services,
and LDAP. There's also some Java stuff, but I'll brew that in the
morning. (eh-heh. yeah.)

Now if I can just get the Novonyx message server and fast track
servers to load...

---------

Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 19:51:46 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NetWare 5 Beta

[Above message snipped]
-----------
	Install /G  for the GUI. Lots of memory and horses are needed for
GUI.
	Please, never install such a dynamic thing as NW o/s beta into an
existing tree. That's fatal. There are many schema extensions in NW 5, and
some are going to disappear during development while others appear. The
beta documents warn users the same way. Be very cautious; don't let this
item modify your production network in any manner!
	To save you some trouble, DNS and DHCP don't work in beta 2. They
install and load but can't be configured. NSS works but don't press it hard.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:26:14 +0000
From: Phil Randal <philr@HWCCES.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: NetWare 5 Beta

>Just installed my NetWare 5 Beta. I didn't get to use the GUI install.
>I don't know if that's been disabled, or they removed it. I didn't miss
>it - I think the longest part of the install was finding the drivers
>for the CD-ROM so I could get started.

Use "install /g" for the GUI install.

There is a bug in there such that we Europeans (and any country
code other than 01) will have problems if we specify country and
codepages in our config.sys - the GUI install hangs when setting up
NDS.  Search Novell's knowledgebase for "MOAB" for more details.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:34:17 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NetWare Storage System (NW5) Questions

>I didn't quite get the response I was hoping for, so I am resending this.

	Because your question is premature. NSS is still evolving.

>I have a few questions about Novell's NSS file system.  Any light you
>can shed is much appreciated!
>
>1) Is it possible to resize partitions of the forthcoming NSS file
>   system? Can you have multiple NSS partitions on a physical disk?

	Have you tried NW 5 beta 2? If not please try to obtain a copy.
Recall, PC architecture says four disk partitions per drive, max. And
keep in mind that beta 3 is where one expects most things to be working,
not perfectly but at least enough to examine. NSS does work in beta 2
but that edition is not robust under stress. Further, don't performance
test the beta 2 edition because there is a lot of optimization occuring
as we talk.

>2) Is it true that the SYS volume must reside on a classic NetWare
>   partition?

	At this moment the answer is yes. As an example of playing around:
I took a 2GB volume SYS: and told NSS to steal a big piece for an NSS
volume. It did so happily. I could have done it again and again for more
NSS volumes. In this case there was no physical disk partition allocated
to NSS. I don't have unpartitioned disk space to try a pure NSS parition.

>3) Is there a limit to the number of volumes that can be on a NSS
>   partition?

	I think the answer will be no. But one encounters NW core NCP
aspects. NSS is intended to deal with both ordinary sized volumes as well
as truely huge disk farms. Once there is time the plan is to extend NSS
(with NRS) to deal with file systems distributed across the network
(future technology).
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:26:16 +0200
From: Mike Glassman - Admin <admin@IAA.GOV.IL>
Subject: MOAB - Netware 5

Just got back from an official Novell opening of the Netware 5 platform
here in Israel, and I have to say, that I for one am definately going to
be making the shift to that platform after what I saw.

Beta 2 or 3 or whatever, it works and looks great. The only drawback is
the negative support on SFT in Netware 5, but full support of Vinca, so
that solves that, and release of Orion towards the end of 98 will sort
that out for us as well.

Onwards Moab !

---------

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:02:25 +0200
From: "Howitt, Alan" <ahowitt@NDSISRAEL.COM>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

I too was just there.....Haim Inger & Com-Line really know how to put on
a GREAT demo (& an amazing lunch!!)

My only question is about the Java virtual machines.....what is
it all about?

And, what is the "workstation manager" on the server ???

---------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:37:47 +0200
From: Mike Glassman - Admin <admin@IAA.GOV.IL>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

They showed the DHCP/DNS option and it is fully integrated into the
Nwadmin and NDS. It was a bloody dream. The only thing that isn't going
to be a snapin, is the server console screen...lol. (joke).

It was an eye opener for sure, all things other than MOAB being
secondary to that system, which in itself, looks like it will be able to
outdo almost anything similar (if there are). It's nice to know that
Novell is finally approaching the application server issue as well as
the F&P server it's always been. the ease of running Java applets under
the server console, or an X-Windows console screen are just something to
be seen to believe. as is the speed of mount of volumes.

I could go on and on about all the things they showed, but it'll be
launched elswhere soon enough so you'll all see it's capabilities as
well.

Of course, MW2.5, ZENWorks, BM etc all snap in as well and are looking
good.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:10:21 -0500
From: Geoffrey Carman <geoffc@YORKU.CA>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

>They showed the DHCP/DNS option and it is fully integrated inted the
>Nwadmin and NDS. It was a bloody dream. The only thing that isn't going
>to be a snapin, is the server console screen...lol. (joke).

I accept that containing the DNS and DHCP info in the NDS is a
good idea in theory.  I like it in fact.

What worries me is performance.  We have a Netware 4.1 tree, with
20,000 or so objects, and it is slowing down quite a bit for many
operations.  (I admit logins seems to not be affected, except in the odd
case that are not reproducable as of yet).

So now say you have a realistic size tree, under 5,000 objects,
and you have a matching number of workstations (or a close number,
ignoring conatiner, print related, and group objects) say 4500, then do
you need two NDS objects?  A DNS entry object and DHCP object?  Or is the
DHCP settings a page in the details of the DNS object?  In any case, you
may just double the size of your DS.

Will we be seeing performance improvements in DS related operations?

I guess as a interesting corollary, I would ask, for NDS
type operations, what is the bottleneck?  CPU? RAM? Network? Disk?

Obviously the correct answer is all 4 in some combination.  But
what I mean is, for a large NDS tree, say 20,000 users, what upgrade makes
the most sense?  A box to conatin replicas that has more RAM, faster Disk,
faster network, or a bigger CPU?

What would the min requirements in terms of each be, that you
would recomend?  I.e. Is a P90 enough, or a 466 for a machine housing only
replicas of that tree?  Or a PPro 200?

Is going from shared 10 Meg to switched 10 meg for all the
replicas the cheapest/most useful upgrade?  Or would you suggest looking
elsewhere?

---------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:56:34 +0200
From: Mike Glassman - Admin <admin@IAA.GOV.IL>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

I can't answer all you ask, for the simple reason that I don't know
exactly how the DNS/DHCP integration will look in the final phase, I
think Joe may know more on this issue. From what I saw of the DHCP, the
schema for the user object had been enhanced to allow for individual
DHCP definitions, as well as container/org options. I am not sure about
the DNS integration other than that it was integrated, there wasn't
enough time for them to show me when I asked later.

As far as performance, since we are talking about a new system, that
will be IP based, and cut out a lot of the SAP/IPX traffic, or allow for
encapsulation of IPX in IPX nececetated applications, and SAP agents for
applications that need SAP such as protection plugs, And for the fact
that there is NSS to look at which gives better disk performance, the
calculations you look at now, cannot really be used in effect where MOAB
is concerned.

A lot of the things we take for granted now that cause server slowdown,
are revised and speeded up in the MOAB system. Of course these are still
only Beta's, and as Joe has said, what we see now is not what we will
see later, and so there is still a lot that is left in the air.

Memory operations are vastly improved, what with the availability of a
swap-file option which allows use of less memory to still get good
performance, and the option to manage memory much easier than under
4.11, such as memory pools.

I am sure that DS related operations will be faster as well as all the
rest. After all, what good is enhancing the shell, when the core is
still slow and cumbersome ? But again, we will have to wait and see.

Release is only 3 months away Novell claims, so it's not too long a
wait.

The scematics they left us say the following about some of these issues
:-

NSS - File limitations move from 2GB file to 8TB, number of files to 2
to the power of 64, Mount of disks in a max time of 2 secs regardless of
disk size, repair of disks in amax of 45, minimul fixed memory
footprints regardless of directory entries ( by usage of swapfile),
automatic Dos, Long and Unix name spaces so no need for the NAM files
anymore,

Multi processing kernel with up to 32 CPU's, ability to set a specific
process to any CPU regardless of NLM type or need, Intelligent IO
support, ability to prioritize applications or applications spaces,
applications can be loaded into protected space, load any NLM to ring 3
with no re-write, no more AbEnds, transparent Virtual memory, memory
limit increased from 3.15GB to 4.0Gb, hot plug PCI

---------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:09:07 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

>I accept that containing the DNS and DHCP info in the NDS is a
>good idea in theory.  I like it in fact.

	Good. Some folks have made a big thing out of moving this material
to NDS and it finally happened.

>What worries me is performance.  We have a Netware 4.1 tree, with
>20,000 or so objects, and it is slowing down quite a bit for many
>operations.  (I admit logins seems to not be affected, except in the odd
>case that are not reproducable as of yet).
>
>So now say you have a realistic size tree, under 5,000 objects,
>and you have a matching number of workstations (or a close number,
>ignoring conatiner, print related, and group objects) say 4500, then do
>you need two NDS objects?  A DNS entry object and DHCP object?  Or is the
>DHCP settings a page in the details of the DNS object?  In any case, you
>may just double the size of your DS.

	This is rather like a network load balancing question. Time to
complete depends on where the items are located (does the system have to
walk the tree to find things), and that is a topology problem usually solved
by intelligent placement of replicas as well as physical networking layout.
In short, moving the (NDS) data closer to the user reduces time delay.

>Will we be seeing performance improvements in DS related operations?

	Can't say for sure. Likely answer is yes.

>I guess as a interesting corollary, I would ask, for NDS type
>operations, what is the bottleneck?  CPU? RAM? Network? Disk?

	File searching. Lotsa files, some rather long by now in your case.

>Obviously the correct answer is all 4 in some combination.  But what
>I mean is, for a large NDS tree, say 20,000 users, what upgrade makes the
>most sense?  A box to conatin replicas that has more RAM, faster Disk,
>faster network, or a bigger CPU?

	Tree != user count. Objects in a partition is the important factor.
More parallel OUs speed access. It's the old search problem again: factor
at the top to reduce the length of each list to be scanned.

>What would the minimum requirements in terms of each be, that you
>would recomend?  I.e. Is a P90 enough, or a 466 for a machine housing only
>replicas of that tree?  Or a PPro 200?

	Too little information to compute. One can't buy a regular Pentium
machine these days; Intel has stopped production of the chips. Look at what
you do have and make some inferences about machine load.

>Is going from shared 10 Meg to switched 10 meg for all the
>replicas the cheapest/most useful upgrade?  Or would you suggest looking
>elsewhere?

	Total gibberish here. Please don't throw switches at the network in
the hope things will improve. Look at you wires (say Lanalyzer for Windows),
make defensible conclusions.
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:12:20 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOAB - Netware 5

>I can't answer all you ask, for the simple reason that I don't know
>exactly how the DNS/DHCP integration will look in the final phase, I
>think Joe may know more on this issue. From what I saw of the DHCP, the
>schema for the user object had been enhanced to allow for individual
>DHCP definitions, as well as container/org options. I am not sure about
>the DNS integration other than that it was integrated, there wasn't
>enough time for them to show me when I asked later.

	There wasn't enough code to let it work, as I have mentioned here.
Otherwise you saw what there was at the Dec freeze for beta 2.

>Release is only 3 months away Novell claims, so it's not too long a
>wait.

	Likely 6-8 months away, actually, at latest word from the company.
That makes academic scheduling a trifle awkward (again).
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:23:11 PST
From: Kevin Miller <kevinm@UHS.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: MOAB - Netware 5 - TechShare Info

I just returned from Techshare a few weeks ago.  Here is some info
I learned from the SE's there:

1) DNS will support static and dynamic assignments. For example, I
could set up DNS to give my machine the same DNS name no matter what
machine (and IP address) I login to.

2) Because DHCP is replicated in NDS, you will be able to have
multiple DHCP servers serving from the same pool of IP addresses.
This gives DHCP the redundancy that it currently lacks.

3) Catalog services are expected to ship with NW5.  This is a new
object in the tree that catalogs a part of or the entire tree.  This
will allow admins to setup white pages, among other things.  It will
also allow contextless logins.

4) NSS will eventually support more "personalities" (analogous to name
spaces), including some they were calling "Web".  Not sure of the
details here.

5) The MPK has been completely rewritten to full integrate additional
processors into the OS.  The design used for the multiprocessing logic
is very similar to that used in current UNIX designs.  The new kernel
will outperform the current SMP design by a huge percentage.  In fact,
the kernel rewrite will increase single processor performance by about
40%.

6) Admins will have a great deal of control over the way virtual
memory is allocated.  It will be possible to assign virtual memory to
some applications, but not others.

7) The new Java front-end will allow remote control via any X-terminal
client.

8) Due to the addition of Java, memory requirements are likely to
increase.  The SE I talked to guessed that 64MB might be the
recommended minimum.

9) Novell has committed to having the fastest JVM in the industry.
According to the SE, they already have it in the NW 5 beta, and it
still has a bunch of debug code in it.

10) LDAP version 3 will be supported, including encryption between
client and server.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:21 -0800
From: Randy Richardson <randy@INTER-CORPORATE.COM>
Subject: NetWare 5 beta 3 demonstration

Many of you should find this article very interesting:

	http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980321.ehbrain.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:29:40 -0700
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: NetWare 5 beta 3 demonstration

>Many of you should find this article very interesting:
>
>	http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980321.ehbrain.htm
--------
	Haven't looked. NetWare 5 beta 3 does not exist at this moment.
There are preliminary builds following beta 2, but items are not yet
frozen for beta 3. Beta 3 is anticipated next month. This is the official
position as well as the reality from troops writing the code, with whom
I spent this week.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

