
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NOV-BAK1.DOC -- 19960227 -- Email thread on NetWare Backup issues
-----------------------------------------------------------------

	Feel free to add or edit this document and then email
	it back to faq@jelyon.com




Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:04:25 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Volumes

>We are thinking about partitioning our 3.12 server into 2 or 3 volumes.
>We currently only have the SYS volume. What's involved in partitioning
>the server hard drive into multiple volumes?
--------
1. Backup *everything*, including drive C:, twice.
2. Load Install, volume options, zap, recreate, reload System & Public
   The trick will be finding those files, which is best done by acting
   as a NW client during this entire process, with all files held on
   another NW server (image of the CD-ROM or floppies in a directory).
3. Restore from tape.
   Be sure to restore the bindery first, then files with trustee
   rights. Most backup programs will not restore space restrictions
   nor printer queues, so recreate those by hand afterward.
4. Syscon, change rights
5. Other details (Mail stuff, login script funnies, etc)

But, make sure your tape program will restore to a new volume name!
(Hint, borrow a play disk as a temp volume).
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:44:56 -0400
From: "Martin C. Mueller" <mcm@MATHEMATIK.UNI-KL.DE>
Subject: Re: Replacing Volume SYS:

>I have two HD's that are starting to hot fix and I hope to
>replace them before they crash. I have read the FAQ and I'm
>still a little puzzled by the different opinons on the best
>method. This is my first replacement (I am a NDS restorer virgin).
>I thought I might post my checklist to see if I could get a critique.
>
>ENVIRONMENT:
>Netware 4.01 (Holds Master NDS)
>SYS: and USR: Volumes (Internal HD)
>Other volumes: (External HD) (This one I'm not worried about)
>4 other servers hold NDS replicas.
>
>STEPS FOR REPLACEMENT: (Drive one)
>1. Do two full backups to tape. (Why not?)
>2. Use partition manager to change the master NDS replica to another
>server.
>3. Down server and xcopy all files from the DOS volume to floppies.
>Replace HD
>4. Xcopy all the files from floppy back to the new DOS partition.
>5. Run SERVER.EXE
>6. Load INSTALL
>7. Set volumes
>8. Use tape backup (Arcserve that is loaded on another server) to
>restore all volumes on first drive.
>9. Run Partition manager and create a replica on the new HD.
>10. Run DSrepair until clean
>11. Use partition manager to change Master back to origional server.
>12. I believe I will have to re create print queues.
>
>This is really scary but it has to be done. Any feedback will be
>greatly appreciated.

0a) run DSREPAIR until clean
0b) disable logins
0c) disable the mail system

1a) write down size of all partitions and volumes
1b) create a user-to-bindery-id list
1c) write down all print queue specs
1d) make list which users had this server as default server

2b) set dstrace on all involved servers until "all processed = yes" for all
    partitions
2c) remove server from NDS via PartMgr
2d) remove volume objects using NetAdmin

5.) be sure to have all patches (esp. backup system, LAN drivers and NDS) ready.
    be sure not to fire up the mail system prematurely.

6a) reinstall NDS

IMPORTANT: swap 8. and 9., otherwise you may loose trustee assigments.
Rule is, NDS has to be in place before restoring files (this is actually only
necessary if step 6a) has not already installed a replica.) I always to use r/w
replicas for the bindery context, but your mileage may vary.

10) this shouldn't be necessary :-)

12a) recreate mail directories from list of 1b)
12b) ditto from 1c)
12c) fire up the mail system

It would come in handy, if you could install the new HD's along with the
old ones, if memory permits (then you can use a tool like JCMD or a
workstation to grab some forgotten files).

PS: Joe D. recommends having a good xcopy of the replaced disks, esp. if
using sbackup, so if you have the time and space...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:53:22 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Server backups

	The three leading vendors of server-based NW backups are
	Cheyenne (Arcserve)
	Arcada (BackupExec)
	Palindrome (NetArchivist? mind is gone)

	Typically these talk to SCSI tape drives located on one server
or on multiple servers and can backup multiple servers. They do timed
operations and fancy tape changing schedules and so on. The cost is not
low for any, and the differences in price amongst vendors is very large.
You can contact each for pricing information. You can test drive each
by contacting their anonymous ftp site and grabbing the time limited
test edition.
	SCSI tape drives range from DAT (DDS-2 preferred for speed and
capacity), Exabyte video (larger capacity), and Digital Linear Tape
(largest capacity). Prices go up by factors of two from left to right,
along with speed and capacity. Restore speed is ordered the other way.
Hobby/personal PC drives are not recommended. Long term cost is in media,
except Exabytes have a reputation for lasting only a year or so.
	Server based backups can deal with namespaces, desktop based
backups often cannot. Backing up NDS data structures is very much a
questionable operation except under special circumstances, so don't
depend on tape to preserve your NDS tree. Binderies for NW 2/3 are backed
up by these products, as are trustee rights (in the directory structure,
not the bindery nor NDS). Volume restrictions can be backed up by these
server-based products.
	Server backup products eat memory and cpu cycles in appalling
amounts. Products differ greatly here so run your own tests. The imposed
stress can make components fail, so again run tests on Your Machine to
find out.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:29:30 GMT
From: Tay Systems Research <tsr@CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: INFO NEEDED: Tape backups for 3.x and 4.1

>Hi all.  I need some suggestions on the types of tape backups that
>are available for large networks (40+ servers...3.x and 4.1).  Right
>now we have several external tape drives of varying capacity and we
>get a few servers each night.  With the number of servers we have and
>the 4.1 network expanding, this is quickly becoming unacceptable.
>
>What I need is some pointers on the type of systems that can handle
>this large a network.  We need to backup 3.x binderies and 4.1 NDS.
>We also need to backup MAC files on some servers.  The original idea
>was to try and backup these servers nightly (nightly full backups).
>I think this is unrealistic but the powers that be have asked about it.

Two products comes into mind: Cybernetics' tape subsystems (the CY-8505
features 35 GB capacity and 90 MB/min transfer rates with FAST SCSI
compression) or Intel's StorageExpress XL systems.  The former's
CY-CHS10A features two tape drives and stores up to 385 GB on eleven
tapes on a changer and I know Intel's StorageExpress XL versions support
multiple changers and units.

No doubt there are others out there (Pinnacle Micro's) but I'm envious of
your environment. :-)

David Tay

------------------------------

>We are looking to buy an autoloader tape drive to hold approximately
>6 4GB backup tapes.  We would be using this with NW4.1 and Arcserve
>5.  One option that was suggested was an HP C1553A DDS-2 autoloader.
>Does anyone know if Arcserve supports this?  Has anyone used any
>other autoloader sucessfully?

HP has the JetStore or Surestore 12000e.  6-tapes changer.  Works with
Arcserve.  http://www.hp.com for more detail.

Daniel Tran - dtran@ucla.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>

	I've used Novaback for years on NW 3 servers and clients. It works.
It does not do namespaces (only DOS namespace from DOS machines) nor NW 4 NDS
but it does the NW 3 bindery and trustee rights etc. It does not preserve
volume restrictions (store on the volume outside the bindery and file space).
	On servers I now use Arcada's BackupExec for faster and comprehensive
backups. Novaback is by auxillary backup method, and it has succeeded when
the big guys fall over from self-inflicted wounds (can't understand tape,
device unavailable, etc). BE does pretty much what Arcserver does, with a
few frills missing, at a fraction of the price, a fraction of log disk space,
half the server memory, no Btrieve (yeah!), and with almost no bad news.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 11:56:46 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BackupExec Enterprise Question

>My work is looking into Arcada's BackupExec Enterprise as backup software
>for our Netware 4.1, 3.12, and NT 3.51 network environment.  I was
>disappointed that there was no client version of the backup software that
>supports NDS.  Given that there isn't, I have one question.

	NDS is never on a client workstation. It exists only on NW 4
file servers. BackupExec does backup the NDS database. You should think
several times before wanting to use a tape image of an NDS database.
	Perhaps you wanted to execute backups on a client instead. Most
of those solutions are scaled down, cut down, versions. BE has personal
features usable by clients even though the backup engine runs on the
server. Just accessing some system-private material is very very difficult
from a client, so doing the backups from a server is better.

>Arcada claims that multiple server environments only need one server to
>backup all server.  What provisions are made for restoring data if the
>machine that goes down is the one that has the backup system installed on
>it?

	What would you imagine? Reinstall the backup software from originals
onto a bare bones server and then do the complete restoration. Reinstallation
is quick and easy. NDS is entirely another matter, so please read the
Novell docs on the matter (many times, and still wonder if things will
work).

>Is it recommended that the backup system be located on a lightly-used
>server?

	Another self-answering question. Heavily used servers are termed
heavily used because they are in fact very busy. Tape backups are work
intensive items. One does not do tape backups in the middle of the day
because files are open, the networks are busy, the servers are busy. A
separate server is not needed, but some simple planning is (do backups
overnight or weekends).

>Despite the speed advantages of having the backup system on the network
>server, I am still very uncomfortable with the idea of putting the backup
>system on the server.  Any opinions/thoughts are greatly appreciated.
>
>PS...We currently use Backup Exec for Windows version to backup our systems,
>but need to upgrade because it is not NDS aware.

	BE/Enterprise edition works well here.
	Joe D.

>Kevin Miller (kevinm@ugastro.berkeley.edu) /  3120 Tang Center
>Info. Systems, Univ. Health Services     /  Phone: (510) 643-5948
>University of California, Berkeley     /  http://ugastro.berkeley.edu/~kevinm/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:56:12 +0000
From: Robin Dinerstein <ROBIN@JCARE.ORG>
Subject: Re: BackupExec Enterprise Question

On  4 Nov 95 , Kevin Miller  wrote:
}My work is looking into Arcada's BackupExec Enterprise as backup
}software for our Netware 4.1, 3.12, and NT 3.51 network environment.
}I was disappointed that there was no client version of the backup
}software that supports NDS.  Given that there isn't, I have one
}question.

Sorry to disappoint you but BackupExec v7 does indeed support NDS.

}Arcada claims that multiple server environments only need one server
}to backup all server.  What provisions are made for restoring data
}if the machine that goes down is the one that has the backup system
}installed on it?

You will need to get the server up to a base level and reinstall the
software.

}Is it recommended that the backup system be located on a
}lightly-used server?

Doesn't make that much difference - however it will hammer that
server when doing the backup , so it's best to schedule out of hours
anyway. It's a good idea to put the tape drive on it's own controller
though.

}Despite the speed advantages of having the backup system on the
}network server, I am still very uncomfortable with the idea of
}putting the backup system on the server.  Any opinions/thoughts are
}greatly appreciated.

Best move we ever made !

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 16:51:51 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Backing up NDS tree and rest of server

>Yes, Palindrome Backup Director does backup NDS, but it is still not a true
>reliable backup solution.  It has many bugs, that do not crash the server
>fortunately, but do crash the software if for example the correct tape is not
>placed in the tape drive.
>
>Any other  backup suggestions would be welcome.

I'd be careful of vast generalizations like this. Even Arcserve works well
under some conditions!

First:  Most of the problems with Palindrome relate to the 4.0 release. 3.1
has been stable, reliable, and provides services nobody else does. It's a
pity that 4.0 was released when it was; apparently the GUI interface was in
high demand compared to the somewhat clunkier DOS interface of the 3.x
product.

Second, unfortunately some of the bugs in Palindrome WILL crash the server.
Bear in mind that backup is complex, has an intimate relationship with
hardware, and is VERY difficult to diagnose. Your problem with crashing the
backup when the incorrect tape is mounted is unique. Are you SURE it's
locking up, and not waiting for input? The interface is quite strange, and
takes some getting used to. Remember I do have a number of clients running
on this, some rock solid, one with some ongoing problems that are nearly
resolved.

Finally, Palindrome is the only Backup vendor I've seen that recognizes
that there is an intimate relationship between low level software like this
and hardware. Nobody else does such extensive testing for BIOS and EPROM
revisions; most don't even mention it as a possibility!

PS: Backup solutions that get Directory Services: Arcserve 5.01G,
Arcadia, Legato, Palindrome's PBD 3.1, PNA 3.1, Both of their 4.0 products,
and even (if they still exist) Mountain's latest Server based software. In
addition there is a freeware module released by Palindrome called
DSARC/DSREST that operates as either an NLM or .EXE. It ONLY backs up NDS,
but was released as a temprorary fix for those with trouble performing NDS
backup. There may be others that I'm not aware of, but all work under some
conditions, just as all will fail under others.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 12:58:00 PST
From: "Houseman, Carl W." <CHOUSEMAN@GENICOM.COM>
Subject: Arcserve 4.05

With Netware 3.1x and ARCserve 4.x tape drivers there is a problem when
total online storage reaches 5-6 Gb.  The problem is due to the non-standard
way that ARCserve uses memory below 16 MB.

ADDING MORE MEMORY BEYOND THE TYPICALLY REQUIRED AMOUNT WILL NOT HELP!

There are two workarounds that I've tried or heard of:

1. Get the correct tape driver for ARCserve 5.x, which is supposed to work
with ARCserve 4.x also.  I haven't tried this.  In this case you DO need
a SET RESERVED BUFFERS BELOW 16 MEG setting.

2. If you don't do #1, REMOVE any "SET RESERVED BUFFERS BELOW 16 MEG"
setting if you have it and don't need it.  Using this I was able to use
5 GB online but not 6.

Carl Houseman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 16:25:06 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARCSERVE 5.01g & ALLOC SHORT TERM MEM

>Anyone experience any problems with ARcserve 5.01g eating up the servers
>memory?
>
>I have a 3.11 ISA server with 32MB RAM, which is only running ARCserve
>5.01g.  The tape drive is attached to a AHA1520 ISA SCSI adapter.  I have
>about 19MB RAM left in the File Cach memory pool after bootup and loading
>ARCserve.  Because of the problem with running out of alloc short term
>memory I have set the memory pool to a maximum of 14MB in the AUTOEXEC.NCF.
>After about a week or two the server eats up the 14MB limit and I'm sure
>that if I set it equal to the File Cache pool it would still run out of
>alloc short term memory.  This causes the Backup jobs to fail from the lack
>of memory in the alloc short term memory pool.
>
>ARCserve technical support doesn't have a clue.  They say it's a Novell
>NetWare problem and to call them - somehow I don't think so.
-------
	An idea only, since I run Arcada BackupExec rather than Arcserve.
It is to use Monitor and find the consumers of the memory pool. Then you
have a case to take to the vendors. But beware that a 1520 controller is
a port i/o device and not a bus master, which taken together with tape
backup programs that beat the living daylights out of SCSI channels suggests
the board is the bottleneck leading to huge Arcserve internal queues. Best
to give the board to a local public school and get a more modern bus master
(eg, an Adaptec 1542).
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 16:35:47 -0800
From: Charles Martini <cmartini@HALCYON.COM>
Subject: Re: NDS RESTORE

See Novell's relatively new NW Server Homepage for their August 95
AppNote on 4.x backups & restores:

	http://netwire.novell.com/home/server/techlit/techlit.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 00:29:09 +0000
From: Richard Letts <R.J.Letts@SALFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Back-up device and software

> Hardware:
> DAT Autochanger 1200C or 1200D from ADIC, 48GB and 96GB respectively

1997 is a long way off, by the time I get to then, I expect the amount of
filestore to be backed-up on the campus network to more than triple.
[to around 300GB -- we are installing 5 servers this year with 100GB of
disk space across them, and will probably install the same next year...]

I would suggest looking at DLT instead of DAT changer units. each DLT drive
hold 10 or 20GB of data (uncompressed) recorded in a linear manner, 128
tracks on the tape. This means that it writes data very fast indeed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:38:35 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Combining Drives

>$Is there any way to recover information off either disk, if the
>$other crashes?
>
>   Not that I'm aware of, and not likely in general.
>
>   NetWare stripes _everything_ across the two or more drives.  That
>means not only that the data for a given file will generally be
>split across all drives, but also that the FAT and DET information
>(giving names and locations of files) will also be split across
>all drives.  Lose one, and you'll have great big holes in the
>FAT and DET.
>
>   Imagine taking a manual and randomly punching 200 holes in
>each and every page.  Now try reading it.  That's what losing the
>one drive has done to your data.  Now try looking something up
>in the index.  That's what losing the one drive has done to your
>DET and FAT information.
>
>   It's possible that a data recovery firm might be able to
>recover some of the data ... I wouldn't want to bet on it, though.
>
>   The only exception to the striping is that anything written
>to one drive before the second drive is added will remain on
>the first drive (at least as long as it's unchanged).
>
>stephen@bokonon.ussinc.com
>Stephen M. Dunn, CNE, ACE, Sr. Systems Analyst, United System Solutions Inc.
>104 Carnforth Road, Toronto, ON, Canada M4A 2K7          (416) 750-7946 x251
-----------

	Stephen is right on the money here. May I tell you a "short" story?

	This US Holiday I was rebuilding UnixWare machine netlab1 to a dual
Pentium-100 system (oh boy!). A few feet away sits NW 3.12 server netlab2,
whose system volume had to be increased from 2 to 4GB recently to hold the
Novell anonymous ftp archive and such. I had added a 2GB drive on the fly
(live, while everyone was using the machine) to give me elbow room on the
day I ran out of space.
	Well, as experienced experimenters know, when trouble happens in
one spot it spreads like the plague. The UnixWare rebuilding exercise was
the trigger. One netlab2 drive decided to grind its bearings into dust
within an hour. The noise level was intolerable. I shut down the NW server
and let the drive cool (grinding does generate heat..). I prepared to
backup volume sys immediately from both Arcada BackupExec on the server
(if the server would come back up) and Novaback on my desktop. Upon powering
up the bad drive would screech and barely make it to synchronization (spindle
speed kind) but it would not stay going long enough to start either backup
(and I was dashing from machine to machine to roll tapes). So sorry, drive
dead, play again?
	No volume sys:. Well, so what. I had backup tapes. I scrounged old
small drives and made a large volume sys from the pieces, albeit with
nothing on them. You recall that losing a member of a spanned set kills
all members, and that's the truth. I installed the very basics on this
new volume, reinstalled BackupExec, rolled the tapes. That worked. Alas,
the last full backup tape set was two weeks old, due to troubles with a
tape drive (trouble spreads from humble beginnings). More recent Novaback
tapes would not read, due to the above tape drive mechanism troubles. I
should have been paying attention at that early moment, but it was such
a small problem at the time...
	Failed restorations when needed most, after successful restoration
tests during quiet times, is par for the course folks. The UnixWare backups
were made three different ways, and two failed restoration when absolutely
needed. The third, Arcada's Unix agent, worked. No need to get excited by
such events; just keep trying patiently. I've had much worse computer
troubles in the field (and that means really in the field: in Antarctica
where service reps and FedEx and telephones don't exist) when I had to
replace disk heads and a platter by hand on the spot (larger physical
drives in those days).
	I restored everything except for a few files sent to netlab2's
incoming directory since early November. If you sent files between then
and a week ago could you please resend them? Thanks.
	Yes, it is foolhardy to depend on spanned drives. The drive that went
bad was an HP 2GB SCSI unit, two years old and presumably of high quality. No
faults or signs of trouble occured until that hour of screeching. The server
was sitting minding its own business and my hands were inside another machine
at the time. Since drives come out of my own pocket I have to make do with a
pair of 2GB units spanning one volume, and cross my fingers that tape backups
are current and valid. The HP disk is off for repairs, and given the slowness
of everything this year I don't expect to see it again for months. Kind of
difficult scraping together enough space in the meantime, hoping that one of
the old small guys does not die too. The new tape drive does a much better job
of backups for me because I can get 4GB raw on one tape rather than having to
change tapes at 2 a.m.; it's an HP Surestore 6000 DDS-2 unit (1533A mechanism).
	Anyway, the reason for the long lead-in was to mention what I noticed
when watching the bad drive attempting to be mounted. The good and bad drives
took turns blinking their activity lights as the volume was checked. There was
no simple pattern to this, and it was obvious that bits and pieces of
everything were spread over both drives willy nilly. One drive alone probably
could not reveal a single complete file; the scattering was that great.
Spanning rather ends all hope of data recovery by sector editing.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 08:28:29 GMT
From: Teo Kirkinen <kirkinen@CC.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: Arcserve & Managewise & server crashes

>I have now installed Intel Storage Express as a temp solution. This works
>OK, but can only handle up to 2 GB. We have total of +- 5 GB.

Connect the tape drive you are using with Arcserve to the Storage Express.
It should be able to handle four DAT-drives. This is what I'm going to
do i a couple of months. We have three servers dedicated to Arcserve and
I'm going to replace them with two Intel Storage Express II (which comes
with a DLT drive) and move all of our DATs to them. Arcserve is just
too much trouble to maintain because it's reliable only in dedicated
servers. By the way Storage Express uses Arcserve's server software ;-)

>Arcserve 6.0 is due soon. I will try it out as soon as it becomes
>available.

I wouldn't. We have experience from the 3-->4 and 4-->5 upgrades and
both times it has taken about half a year from Cheynne to get the
program stable.

By the way: does anybody have connection problems with Arcserve in
a routed IPX-network. We have begun to route IPX in some parts of
our campus network and we are not able to backup few Netware 4.1
servers which are a few hops away. Arcserve logs into the server and
starts to estimate but nothing happens after that. The problem may have
something to do with the fact that some of the subnetworks use
802.2 and some 802.3 frames for IPX (we are in a transition from
ethernet to FDDI and ATM).

------------------------------

Date: 04 Dec 95 14:58:20 EST
From: Deepak Bhatia <70404.1143@compuserve.com>
To:: NETW4-L@bgu.edu
Subject: NDS, Non-Bindery Tape Backup

>I am in the process of moving our existing Netware 4.1 shop into a new
>Data Center.  All new servers, FDDI collapsed backbone, DEC hubs, etc.
>As a result, I have also been tasked with eliminating the need for
>Bindery emulation and Bindery context.  I am in search of a NDS,
>non-bindery que, no bindery context setting needed tape backup.
>
>Because of performance in the past which has caused political
>ramifications, Palindrome is out.  The next product was Arcada, which
>has been given good references on this list and has some very nice
>features.  After resaerching Arcada, I discovered that although it is
>a NDS product it requires bindery context to be set on the server.
>I am still looking for a backup solution.  Any reccomendations would
>be greatly appreciated.

Think you should revisit v4 of Palindrome's Backup Director.
This is the fastest I have seem in true NDS mode.
Were you referring to v4 of the product?

Also Check out Storage Manager  and VISTA for Enterprise backup.
True SMS, NDS compliant, SIDF backup.

Regards

PacMan :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:50:54 -0500
From: SArmes@aol.com
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: NDS, Non-Bindery Tape Backup

Palindrome's Backup Director and Storage Manager are definitely the way
to go!

This new VISTA product is very interesting, especially for anyone
managing multiple sites, with no "real" technical staff at the sites.

The NDS support is truly native, with no bindery emulation.

They also have added a lot to their WWW site, so check it out.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:25:00 -0600
From: Adam Staub <adam@RISKADM.COM>
Subject: PCtools Ver 9.0

>We just purchased PC Tools Pro version 9 for DOS and were trying to
>backup our NetWare 4.01 server.
>
>When you get into PC Tools, logged in as Admin equiv. and specify the
>volumes (or mapped drives) to backup, it reads just the files off the
>root of the volume or mapped drive and not the directories under the root.

I used to use Pc Tools ver 9.0 to backup my 3.12 server.  I had many
problems until I found out that you MUST use NETX to backup files over the
network.  Otherwise strange things happen.  By the way PCTOOLS/SYSMANTEC
did confirm this.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:44:47 -0500
From: AMAR GILL <AXG@BLAKES.CA>
Subject: Storage Express vs Arcserve

Here are my thoughts about SE (orginal Storage Express not II) and
Arcserve 5.01G.

We've been running both solutions side by side for about 2 years.
At our site, we had more trouble with the SE units than Arcserve.
And since the SE units are totally customized by Intel, if you do run
into a problem, it's difficult to track down.  It's Novell runtime
but doesn't get loaded/executed like your average Netware server.
Intel tech support has been very good but it's no longer free after
the first 90 days.  You've gotta get on one of their 'plans'.  The
product started off rather poorly but has improved over the months.
Their console front end could use a lot of improvement.  The server
units have no keyboard or monitor so you can't walk upto it and see
what is going on.  They also use the Arcserve engine and are usually
a few releases behind the Arcserve products on the market.  Any
'engine' related problems usually do not get resolved for quite some
time because Intel has to rely on Cheyenne to fix them and Cheyenne
has their own problems to resolve first (ex when we updated our SE,
if during backup a tape ran out of room, the SE prompted for 5
mintues to 'insert new' before cancelling the job.  This was not the
case with the previous release and caused major headaches.  Intel
suggested we go back to the old release or spend a lot of money
upgrading our drives).

The Arcserve product has been behaving very nicely.  The only thing I
don't like is that if you have a '100 user' license of Arcserve, you
can't backup a server that is licensed for more that 100 users.  The
database purging/packing process is not the greatest.  The front end
is very good and well designed.  The tech support lines are usually
jammed and a 45min wait time is not un-common.  It is free, however,
and has improved in the last few months.  Their support people have
been very helpfull when needed, including weekends.  If you need to
backup NDS, look into it because Arcserve is not NDS aware (I
believe).  We have had database corruption a few times on both
systems.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:43:00 -0600
From: Adam Staub <adam@RISKADM.COM>
Subject: Re: lan backup system

>I am looking for a good  LAN Backup System.(Server H/D is 4 GB) Any
>recommendation?  Does anyone has experience using HP Surestore 5000
>with Arcserve 5.0?  Any problems?

I'm using a surestore 6000 with Arcada 5.0 and have no problems with
either.  The surestore does around 39.0 meg per minute on my machine.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 06:52:02 GMT
From: Justin Chandler <J.Chandler@GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Disconnect Users when backing up.

We use a utility call ZZCLEAR which clears NOT-LOGGED-IN users
every  xyz mins.

If you are using ARCSERVE then it can log users out before it
does its backup.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:48:46 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: lan backup system

>>I am looking for a good LAN Backup System.(Server H/D is 4 GB) Any
>>recommendation ?
>>Does anyone has experience using HP Surestore 5000 with Arcserve 5.0 ?
>>
>There isn't really enough information here; I cannot get AS5.01g+patches
>to RESTORE data written on a 4.1 server. the backup aparently works, but
>there is no way to get the data back off the tape.  Fortunately SBACKUP
>(which ships with NetWare) works fine, which leads me to suspect Arcserve.
-------------
	The HP "Surestore" 5000 DAT tape drive is a DDS-1 unit, a nice one.
The model 6000 is a DDS-2 unit, nicer, which is double the speed and can
also use the 120M (4GB raw) tapes when those tapes come back on the market
this spring. I own both and prefer the 6000 for speed.
	It should be noted that Arcada's BackupExec v7, the current issue,
can read Arcserve tapes. BE lacks the problems noted with Arcserve, and
costs much less too. I keep wondering why sites experiencing major troubles
with Arcserve don't try the 30-day trial of BackupExec (ftp.arcada.com).
Maybe it's the self-fulfilling trap: if it costs a lot and is the hoopla
favorite, despite continuing horrid internal troubles, then surely neither
all that money nor all those other buyers can be wrong and hence it *must*
be the best. Whatever happened to calm cool technical evaluation?
	To prospective buyers: evalutate hands-on before purchasing. These
software products are availble for testing by visiting the vendors' ftp
sites.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:24:27 GMT
From: Juergen Sauer <jojo@SERVER.SAE.EXTERN.FH-HANNOVER.DE>
Subject: Re: PC Tools v9 problem w/ NW 4.01

>We just purchased PC Tools Pro version 9 for DOS and were trying to
>backup our NetWare 4.01 server.

Do not use this software...it's not usable for NDS Services. Only the
bindery Emulation could work perhaps. (Never got this working)

The much Better way is:
Server based:
	1) Tape Ware from Emeritus (Small & fine, quick)
	2) Legato Networker (multi Platform)
	3) ArcServe for Novell (Memory Hog  on the server!, bad Client
	   software, a Client Soft ist still needed for backing up the
	   server)

Workstation based:
	3) use an NT 3.51 Workstation
	   & ArcServe for NT (best functionally)
	4) ArcServe for Novell
	5) Arc Solo for OS/2
	or any other Soft for BAcking up Networks.

The Arc Solo for Win or DOS is not worth to think about.

	It's not recommended to think windows work at all ... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 19:37:07 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: sbackup -tape format - Reply

>We have several DAT tapes that will not mount. Either the media is bad
>(what the messages indicate) or the EOF was destroyed from a ABEND during
>backup. We think formatting will fix them if they can be fixed. New tapes
>work fine in the drive.
>
>How do you send an "erase" (or any) command to an HP DAT drive?
----------
	Normally the tapes aren't really bad at all, but the tape program
can't cope and provides such excuse messages. DAT tapes are "formatted"
only in the case of using Quick File Access on them, where about 100MB
is allocated at the beginning for file-head position number catalogues.
The "format" consists of erasing that much tape and putting a special
marker at the end of the QFA area. There is no other formatting.
	Sbackup does not count as a tape backup program of merit, and you
should not depend upon it. Amongst many other things, Sbackup does not
understand the notion of QFA and hence does not use it. Thus there is no
"formatting" of tape. Most backup programs do not understand QFA either,
and hence do not format DAT tapes.
	If you read the list you will discover that serious sites spend
money on commercial backup programs of strength and depend upon them.
Such programs provide a full tape erase operation, and it can take hours
to wind through a longish tape. To recover your current tapes may well
entail running them through the drive with another backup program, or
finding a bulk tape eraser and buzzing them carefully.
	Please recall that only tapes marked as DDS should be used, never
audio or unknown marking tapes. I use Maxell tapes and rumor says HP tapes
are the same, if you believe rumors.
	Finally, there is little more frustrating than to be in an emergency
situation, with backup tapes in hand, and find that the restore program
refuses to recognize the tapes. Almost all programs are subject to this
fatal flaw, alas, but better programs fail less often.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:15:22 GMT
From: Bruce Webber <bwebber@DMC1.DMC.ORG>
Subject: Re: sbackup -tape format - Reply

[much deleted about DAT tapes]
>	Finally, there is little more frustrating than to be in an emergency
>situation, with backup tapes in hand, and find that the restore program
>refuses to recognize the tapes. Almost all programs are subject to this
>fatal flaw, alas, but better programs fail less often.
>	Joe D.

Thanks, Joe, for the excellent info on DAT drives in particular, and
backup in general.

Another fatal flaw, in this case with the hardware, is when a tape
written by one tape drive cannot be read by another tape drive. We
realized this when the tape drive on one server failed, and we were
unable to read those tapes on another server's tape drive (thus
preventing us from restoring files across the network). We began
backing up that server across the network<snip>

Thoughts on this?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:10:43 +0100
From: "Niels Chr Nielsen, 5551" <RMS-NCNI@RISOE.DK>
Subject: Re: PC Tools v9 problem w/ NW 4.01

>:>We just purchased PC Tools Pro version 9 for DOS and were trying to
>:>backup our NetWare 4.01 server.
>
>DO NOT USE LOW COST & AWFULL CHEAP DESIGNED BACKUP SOFT.

- I agree.

>THIS PC TOOLS SOFT is not worth think about for your application,
>it's not usable for NDS Services. Only the bindery Emulation could
>work perhaps. (Never got this working)
>
>The much Better way is:
>Server based:
>	1) Tape Ware from Emeritus (Small & fine, quick)

Careful here:
    Tapeware restores compressed files as decompressed, so you may run
out of disk space or quota when restoring.
    I suspect not all NDS properties are backed up (eg Login Scripts),
but I have no bulletproof evidence for this.
    Using a tape jukebox, I've seen it roll back a tape, place it in
the stacker, take it again, and continue the backup from the beginning
of the tape instead of asking for a new tape. I was _not_ amused. Bad
tape labeling scheme, not useable with multiple-tape backups.
    According to our reseller, there is no and there never will be a
TW410.NLM support module to make Tapeware work on NW4.1: Dead End.
>	2) Legato Networker (multi Platform)
    We're implementing this presently and have no complaints so far
regarding Netware. However, we have not thoroughly tested our backups
by doing a full restore. Also, it seems NDS must be backed up
manually, it can not be part of a scheduled backup.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:10:09 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Disk remove/replace

>I'm planning on replacing an old 528MB hard drive with a much faster
>1.08GB PIO Mode 4 drive.  I'm looking for guidance/help on
>transferring ALL of the netware and user data files from one to the
>other so that the new drive is a logical mirror image of the old one,
>except with a lot more space.  Current system is V3.12 and we're not
>planning on changing that.
--------
	That's a fairly common situation in these days of increasing
space requirements and falling disk drive prices.
	With NW3 there are four pieces to the puzzle needing movement
	a) the DOS drive C: area (simple)
	b) the bindery (simple if care is taken)
	c) trustee rights (in directories, not the bindery), can be tricky
	d) the files themselves (NCOPY does NOT, repeat NOT, move trustee
	   rights, alas).

	The standard advice goes about like this (all users off the system).

	Do two BINDFIX's to get a clean set of .OLD files.
	Make backups. Don't rely upon one method, particularly Sbackup,
but do two or more methods, and do trial restorations.
	Then put your new drive in the server, initialize it as a new volume
of any name, say SYS1:. Mount it. Copy or Ncopy the System, Public, Mail,
and Login directories. That will move the bindery .OLD files too.
	Carefully, dismount volume SYS: and SYS1:, and rename the new disk
to be volume SYS:. Load Install is the renaming tool. Disconnect the old
drive and keep it in a safe place.
	Restart the server and it will come up on the new drive labeled SYS:
with an empty bindery. Note that startup.ncf is in the new drive C: area
and autoexec.ncf and NLMs are in sys:system from copying above.
	Run BINDREST to activate the old bindery.
	Fire up your tape backup system to restore everything from tape.
Trustee rights will come from tape, preceeding the files themselves.
	Reboot the server.

	Expect to have print queues clobbered because they keep files open
even during backups. Just regenerate them by hand.
	That's it. You still have the original volume SYS: disk drive in
pristine shape in case you need to repeat the task.
	Some of the rename and mounting steps can be done without taking
down the server, but it's cleaner to restart the server from a power off
state.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:16:06 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: BACKUP THE NDS OF NW 4.10 or OPEN FILE MANAGER.

>We have 6 novell 4.10 servers.
>I want to backup the file system and the nds.
>I tried ARCSERVE 5.01G (cheyenne) and BACKUP-EXEC (arcada) but I cannot
>backup a open files.
>
>I heard about a product that called "OPEN FILE MANAGER" or something like
>that know how to backup the nds and open files as well.
>
>If someone can help me to find more information about backup solution for
>novell NW 4.10 servers with the nds and open files, or about one of the
>products it self or about the OPEN FILE MANAGER please send me the info or
>the e-mail address or www that i can find more info.

Hi! Try Palindrome; I've had similar problems with open files. It handles
open files better than any other backup I've tried, plus it actually
manages data, handling all the details of tape rotations, off site storage,
and has manageable history files. The tape rotation/backup protection
scheme is unique, too. They use Tower of Hanoi by default, greatly reducing
your overall exposure to data loss, and instead of doing simple incremental
backups it uses a rather clever method of verifying that there are multiple
copies of any version of a file (you can set how many copies) - then, and
only then will it skip that file. On the internet they're at
ftp.palindrome.com, or of course www.palindrome.com, or for an eval copy
call them Stateside at (708)505-3300.

Of course, if your open files are being opened write lock exclusive you'll
need the open file manager - although NOTHING in the system, including nds
should prevent backup, even if you're in nwadmin. If nobody else speaks up
I'll dig up the info on it.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Dec 95 13:42:31 EST
From: Deepak Bhatia <70404.1143@compuserve.com>
To: NETW4-L@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: BACKUP THE NDS OF NW 4.10 or OPEN FILE MANAGER.

I second Randy on his comments on Palindrome.

Would like to add that Plaindrome also has a Enterprise Backup product
called Vista that monitors all backups done via a central console (can
use SNMP).   Another thing - this is FAST.

PacMan :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:03:40 -0500
From: SArmes@aol.com (Steve Armes)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: BACKUP THE NDS OF NW 4.10 or OPEN FILE MANAGER.

Palindrome Backup Director has native NDS login (no bindery emulation) and
excellent support for open files.

Open File Manager can be added on top of Palindrome, but you may not
need it. Their Native NDS and open file backup beats either Cheyenne or
Arcada, even with open File Manager added.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:25:45 GMT+0100
From: William Sadler <16913_SU@FIR.COSSOR.COM>
Subject: New disk/PC moving data.

Today I have read three request along the line: I have a new/bigger/better
disk/server, how do I move the data from the old to the new and retain all
he rights/trustees/space restrictions/ownerships/flags etc.

I would like ask another question to those putting the above question:

  What would you do in event of a disaster and the old server exits!

Suggestion: Treat the building of the new server/disk as an exercise in
	    disaster recovery. (You will get more time to work out what to
	    do than in a real disaster!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:58:35 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 4MM DAT Tape Life

>I am attempting to standardize our backup routines for our Netware
>Servers.  We use 4mm DAT Tapes.  The standard I am going to propose
>to management is a basic Grandfather/father/son.  But I don't have
>any good information on when we should expire the tapes.  The faq
>suggests monitoring the tapes for errors, then replacing. I'm not
>saying this shouldn't be done but I also
>DON'T want to need a backup, and it's stored on almost dead tapes.
>
>Ideally I would like to retire the tapes with somewhere like 25% of thier
>useful life still in them.
>
>What would you suggest as a good rule of thumb?
--------
	Open up the manual from your drive manufacturer. In it should be
(quotes) comments on the conservative life of tapes in that drive. Hundreds
of passes is a very very conservative lower limit, and a pass is motion over
the heads for any reason. Recall that inadequate bandwidth means the drive
can start and stop while waiting for more bytes, and that increases stress
on the tape. Dirty drives cause tape rereads/rewrites, causing more wear
and tear. Tape cleaning cartridges help clean a drive, but they fail to touch
the drive capstan spindle where serious slippage problems can occur (clean
that by hand with a Queue Tip (tm) just damp with alcohol, vigorously).
	Joe D.

---------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:09:05 -0800
From: "Aaron D. Turner" <aturner@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: 4MM DAT Tape Life

On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Joe Doupnik wrote:
[snip]
> and tear. Tape cleaning cartridges help clean a drive, but they fail to touch
> the drive capstan spindle where serious slippage problems can occur (clean
> that by hand with a Queue Tip (tm) just damp with alcohol, vigorously).

Make sure you use AT LEAST 90% alcohol solution.  Many rubbing alcohol
products are like 30% water, 70% alcohol which can cause deposits (very
bad).  Using the cleaning solution from a floppy cleanning kit (which is
90-99% alcohol) for example should work nicely.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:44:05 GMT
From: Torbjorn Rodvik <torbjorn.rodvik@TRANSPOECON.NO>
Subject: Re: 4MM DAT Tape Life

>I am attempting to standardize our backup routines for our Netware
>Servers.  We use 4mm DAT Tapes.  The standard I am going to propose
>to management is a basic Grandfather/father/son.  But I don't have
>any good information on when we should expire the tapes.  The faq
>suggests monitoring the tapes for errors, then replacing. I'm not
>saying this shouldn't be done but I also
>DON'T want to need a backup, and it's stored on almost dead tapes.
>
>Ideally I would like to retire the tapes with somewhere like 25% of thier
>useful life still in them.
>
>What would you suggest as a good rule of thumb?

HP says greater than 2000 passes. Each time the media passes the heads counts.
A backup/compare session counts as 4 passes. Since media cost is so low on
tapes today it is better to retire to early than to late. Make sure you keep
the tapes in a clean and not to sunny place.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 07:06:06 GMT
From: Alain Krucker <akrucker@ELCOMA.CH>
Subject: Re: 4MM DAT Tape Life

>I am attempting to standardize our backup routines for our Netware
>Servers.  We use 4mm DAT Tapes.  The standard I am going to propose
>to management is a basic Grandfather/father/son.  But I don't have
>any good information on when we should expire the tapes.  The faq
>suggests monitoring the tapes for errors, then replacing. I'm not
>saying this shouldn't be done but I also
>DON'T want to need a backup, and it's stored on almost dead tapes.
>
>Ideally I would like to retire the tapes with somewhere like 25% of thier
>useful life still in them.
>
>What would you suggest as a good rule of thumb?

We sell 4mm Tapes (an OEM of Sony). We advice our customers to expire
the tapes after 50hrs of usage. The tapes should not be stored near
electrical devices. And don't forget to clean your drive using a
cleaning catridge every 25hrs of use.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:43:42 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 120mm DDS2 Backup Tapes

>>We use Arcserve 5.01g and a Compaq TurboDAT autochanger to backup our
>>Novell server (Novell 4.1). We have just purchased 25 new 120mm DDS2
>>tapes, out of this shipment (from 2 different manufactures) we have had
>>15 tapes that get a data write error from Arcserve. (Always near the end
>>of the tape)
>
>I had one of these beasts, and it proved to be very fast - when it
>worked. I tried numerous different brands of tapes, with varying
>success. The worst compatability was with HP tapes which required the
>drive to be cleaned before _one_ tape had finished going through, and
>(not suprisingly) it was difficult to read data off these tapes. I
>should note that I have not had problems with HP tapes on any of my
>other drives. The best compatability was with the Sony tapes _if_ you
>were using very old or new tapes - there appeared to be a batch from
>the factory that just didn't like the drive. One nasty "gotcha" I
>found was that frequently a backup would appear to work, but you would
>not be able to retrieve data off the tape at a later date....

	I've commented on the net previously that folks are relearning old
techniques of decades ago: virgin tape is electrically noisy indeed. The
best tapes are those used a few times. The way to cut the noise is to bulk
erase them, or use the "full tape erase" capabilities of some backup programs
to do almost the same job.
	My HP Surestore 6000 DAT (aka C1533A) DDS-2 drive does the same thing.
It declares tape cleaning is needed, when clearly that is a false response.
Erasing the tapes makes the drive happy with that tape forevermore. Be aware
that erasing via the big name backup programs not only takes forevermore
but it eats up server cpu cycles like crazy. Thus consider bulk erasers.
Never use permanent magnets; they can and will permanently destroy the tape.
That's engineering speaking. Buzz them and greatly separate components before
switching off the buzzer. The bigger the buzzing device the better.
	In addition, here is one other piece of tape drive survival gear:
dry cleaning-tapes do only part of the cleaning job. They miss thoroughly
cleaning the tiny metal shaft which pulls the tape while the tape is pressed
against it by a large rubber roller. It's the capstan. Scrub that shaft well,
use the wooden end of a Queue Tip (tm) to help remove the crud. The symptom
of needing this action is the tape records ok but won't playback well, and
that is from tape slippage. C1533A owners may note that HP locks the tape
takeup motors periodically during cleaning to help make the tape scrape
against the capstan rather than letting all components smoothly roll together.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:10:42 +1000
From: Richard Phillips <Richard_Phillips@MCINTOSH.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: 120mm DDS2 Backup Tapes

>	I've commented on the net previously that folks are relearning old
>techniques of decades ago: virgin tape is electrically noisy indeed. The
>best tapes are those used a few times. The way to cut the noise is to bulk
>erase them, or use the "full tape erase" capabilities of some backup programs
>to do almost the same job.
>	Joe D.

I'm a throwback from the dim dark past (I can even remember using
punched paper tape.... heck, I can still remember keying in boot
sequences on a hex pad), and fully agree. Although most new drives
have heads that do seem to erase tapes much better than the old ones
ever did, I still have some of the biggest and ugliest bulk tape
erasers and yes we still use them. This was not the problem with the
Compaq drive, unfortunately.

P.S. Two of the other big advantages of using a tape a few times is
that it can remove flakey bits of media left over from the
manufacturing process plus it tends to free up the tape itself making
it run smoother. This is always a good idea to do, whether it's
digital or analog, for data, video, or voice.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:09:04 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: DAT Tapes, and how to ruin

>>Although most new drives have heads that do seem to erase tapes much
>>better than the old ones ever did, I still have some of the biggest
>>and ugliest bulk tape erasers and yes we still use them. This was
>>not the problem with the Compaq drive, unfortunately.
>
>One of the best bulk tape erasers is an old stereo speaker magnet. It's
>cheap, works great and can be found in anybody's garage (at least that's
>what my wife says)!
--------
	Didn't I just get through saying: Don't use permanent magnets on data
tapes? Please, save your tapes from that permanent abuse. AC demagnetizers
only. I'll spare everyone a detailed discussion of magnetic B-H curves and
hystersis and mechanical torquing of oxide grains by excessive force.
	Now put that into your CNI cirriculum please: no magnets.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:22:38 -0500
From: Joe Short <jshort@FUENTEZ.COM>
Subject: Re: Palindrome (Digest - 2 Jan 1996)

>I am currently looking for a backup software for my NW 4.1 server.
>I have heard about the Palindrome backup director and Arcserve
>backup, but not quite sure which direction to go. Please gives
>me some advices, advantages and disadvantages of both.

Before reading, please note that this is ONE experience from ONE person.
Always research carefully!!

I would hesitate before recommending Palindrome as a single server backup
solution.  After 6 months of careful research, our small company finally
decided to replace our aging quarter-inch tape and DOS-based Mountain
software with 4mm DAT and server-based, DOS Palindrome Archivist.  At that
time we had one 3.12 server (486DX50, 32MB RAM, 2GB HD), with one 3.12 and
one 4.1 server planned.
Palindrome's sales staff promised that our server had more-than-required
resources to support the .NLM version.

We spent close to $4000 for hardware and a multi-server Archivist version,
and thus begin our adventure.  Our server took the SCSI 4mm (HP JetStore)
great, but abended everytime we loaded the Pal's .NLM's.  After patching up
the old server (something we should have already done), we then spent 3
weeks trying to receive updates from Palindrome.

Palindrome support then recommended *downgrading* CLIB, then suggested we
add memory, then thought we may have to switch server platforms from EISA to
ISA.

Funky situations would occur like the monitor *not* blanking or the tape
being ejected before the unattended backup kicked off.  Sometimes locking
the console screen would abend the server, IF archivist's .NLM's were
loaded.  Sometimes the 'unattended' backup wasn't so unattended, requiring
someone to first unlock the console screen.  (Yes, we were running the
latest patches!)

$5000 and three months later we finally started a normal, unattended backup
operation, only to discover that after deleting MAC namespace, Archivist was
unstable (Archivist User's Guide, pg. 3-25: "WARNING: Palindrome suggests
that after a resource is backed up, you do NOT change the name space being
tracked.").  MORAL --> RTFM completely!!%&@$    :)

I know things cannot always be 'easy', but this has been one of the most
frustrating experiences we have had.

I now have the same 4mm DAT drive connected to a little 486 running Windows'
Arcada Sytos ($39.95!!).  This is by no means an enterprise solution, but it
works great with our little 3.12 server.

I now have a $1300.00 Palindrome Network Archivist, multi-server, DOS based
.NLM software license that I wouldn't wish on our worst enemy.

Things are now quiet...think we'll try Arcserve next...

---------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:40:13 -0800
From: "Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@VESTNET.COM>
Subject: Re(2): Palindrome (Digest - 2 Jan 1996)

>Things are now quiet...think we'll try Arcserve next...

I've had experience with arcserve 5.01g and after all the patches applied
to the netware 4.1 server and to the arcserve server, it is solid as a
rock.  And after doing much research I found out that Arcserve happens to
hold 80% of the Netware market with their backup support.  The best thing
about Cheyenne's Arcserve, is their tech support.  They are available on
weekendsa till 7:00 pm Eastern time and during the week till 10:00 Eastern.

They are extremely knowledgeable and the support is FREE!  You have to pay
according to the number of users your netware server license supports.
Mine was 50 and the price tag was roughly $1400.00, plus another 800 for a
good HP 12gig (In compression mode) DAT 4mm drive and you're rolling.  It
will not take more than 30 minutes to get the whole thing going, providing
you have already applied all the necessary patches to your 4.1 Server.

---------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 10:56:00 -0800
From: Michael_Thompson@HOUSING.UCSD.EDU
Subject: Re: Palindrome or ArcServe Backup???

We use both here on campus at UCSD.  Both have advantages.  Both have
problems.  Both work.  However, just my 2 cents worth of advice that may
save you a pile of heartburn over the next few years...

	 === Put the backup software on it's own server ===

Both of these NLM products can cause some pretty strange problems on a
production server including system crashes.  Frequency and nature of the
problems will vary greatly with the other NLMs that are running.

You can get just the 2-user version of Netware 4.1 and install it and
that'll probably work fine for the backup server.  It doesn't have to be
a Pentium and it doesn't need a LOT of memory.  It shouldn't have
production NLMs installed. That way IF it crashes, no one is hurt.
It probably won't crash on a simply configured machine like this.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:24:49 +0100
From: Achim Stegmeier <x03@SUN0.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
Subject: Re: Palindrome or ArcServe Backup???

>I am currently looking for a backup software for my NW 4.1 server.
>I have heard about the Palindrome backup director and Arcserve
>backup, but not quite sure which direction to go. Please gives
>me some advices, advantages and disadvantages of both.

We have Installations of both. Few years ago Arcserve 4.0 offered
reasonable functionality and Palindrome was terribly expensive.
Nowadays you have Arcserve 5, which is a real pain and Palindrome
has lowered the price significantly.

I consider Palindrome Backup Director ( or Storage Manager ) by far
superior to Arcserve 5. Furthermore it might be cheaper, depending on
your network scenario.

PBD offers some kind of data management ( one might have a look at
http://www.seagate.com/software/palindrome/palindro.htm ).

We don't recommend Arcserve anymore, and are quite happy with PBD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:09:21 GMT
From: Billy_Smith@SCOOBY.COMPULINK.CO.UK
Subject: Re: ArcServe Betrieve Error

>    I'm currently getting and error message within ArcServe's when I try
>to modify my PC Clients under the Job Que Display.  The error reads
>something like this:
>
>     Btrieve error 2 . Unable to get extended...
>...SYS:/ARCSERVE/.../ASNODE.DB

This usually means that the ASNODE.DB file has become corrupt . It can
be `repaired` but to be honest I would not try that. Copy the
asnode.db from the emptydb directory and let the system rebuild the
database.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:02:28 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: changing network hard drive

>I am looking for some information regarding upgrading my network hard drive.
>What is the easiest way to upgrade from two SCSI 300MB hard drives (set up to
>look like one 600MB drive) to one 2GB SCSI drive?  I am running Novell 3.11
>and would like to minimize the effort involved with upgrading.  Is is possible
>to backup to tape all the information on the old drives, including the Novell
>program files, remove the old drives, install the new drive and restore the
>information on the new drive?  I am trying to avoid having to reinstall the
>Novell files from diskette since the system is running fine and I don't want
>screw up the current configuration.  I just want to move ALL the information
>from one drive to the other.  Any ideas?
----------
	Since the NW disk partitions are vastly different in size you can't
just mirror them (to pre-answer a common question). There is an easy and
quick method, using tape.
	On the new disk create the DOS partition and load it with the usual
material. Make one or two floppy disks holding the NLMs that you
conventionally use on the live server, the autoexec.ncf file too, and your
tape restore program. Bring up the server with the new disk by saying
SERVER -na. That will load your disk driver from startup.ncf on drive C:.
At the colon prompt type Load Install, create volume sys: and whatever, mount
it. Now, by hand at the colon prompt type LOAD this and that from the floppy
disk (a:module.nlm...). Your server is now up with an empty bindery. From
another floppy disk load the tape restore program, or if desired simply
reinstall it from the original distribution media. Proceed to login as user
Supervisor, no password, run the tape restore program to restore the bindery
first and only then all other files (which we presume include trustee rights
for a NW-aware backup program).
	Once you are happy restart the server and walk away.
	You still have the original drives as a fallback. No files have been
lost on them. You have now performed a test of the emergency backup system.
If this had been a real emergency you would have...
	A single floppy will normally hold all the get-going NLMs. Omit the
fancy stuff, stick to basics.
	Now, to show versatility of NW, over Thanksgiving (US holiday devoted
to overconsumption) I rebuilt volume SYS: which spanned two drives, one of
which broke. I kept the server on the air throughout, with the tape backup
program loaded in memory. Vol sys: was unloaded live, Load Install was used
to create a new volume sys: with a fresh (really old and small but that's all
I had) replacement drive, and a tape restore put the pieces back together
again, live. Volume sys1: was used as a helper for a few files just to make
life easier for me. I had previously created the floppies above, plus a stack
for the drive C: material in case I had a crash (and I did lose a disk drive).
Yes, you can swap SCSI drives live if you unplug the power supply connector
before the SCSI connector.
	Finally, we cringe when folks are careless with technical names for
networking items; it makes us uneasy about the rest of such messages. The
product is NetWare, not Novell the company. We don't run Novell; Bob
Frankenberg does (or tries to). Please correct your colleagues if they make
the same mistake.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:17:17 +0100
From: "David W. Hanson" <dhanson@AFRC1.GARMISCH.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: changing network hard drive

>>I am looking for some information on upgrading my network hard drive.

The upgrading of a hard drive that contains a SYS: volume should be
treated as an opportunity to test your disaster recovery plan.

Restore to the new SYS: volume using your current backups, and if you
cannot successfully restore, you need to review your backup strategy.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:34:08 GMT
From: Teo Kirkinen <kirkinen@CC.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: ReInstalling Nw4-Server

>After a drive-crash we now have to re-install our server for the students.
>We have most of the files on tape (ArcServe 5) including NDS. But we
>also have a couple of servers that hold the NDS. <snip>

Don't re-install the server in the NDS until you are absolutely sure
about the least bad way of doing it! You will be really sorry, if you
do it in the wrong way.

Here is a reference for a technical document about backing up and
restoring the nds. It also discuss crash-recovering procedures:

	http://netwire.novell.com/home/server/techlit/techlit.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:28:30 +0100
From: Urban Svensson <urban@DKK.SE>
Subject: Re: Arcserve 5.01g or Palindrome 4.0

Jan W. van Markus wonders if he should use ARCServe 5.01g or
Palindrome 4.0.

My opinion is that the user interface on ARCServe is complicated but a lot
more versatile. ARCServe lets You do copy operations between servers
and workstations. Copy operations I think cannot be performed with
Palindrome 4.0. Also the logs in Palindrome are next to impossible to read
whereas ARCServe ones are very legible.  You might think I recommend
ARCServe which is exactly what I do thanks to using it as my only
Backup SW and it works just fine. Both I think work similarly well with
NDS so there is probably no reason to buy one or the other for that
reason. Do not forget to check out ARCServe 6.0 which I think could be
released in the Netherlands by now.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:53:03 +0200
From: root <root@GIL-GALAD.PARADIGM.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Arcserve

We've been running Arcserve 4.01 for some time & after a while it started
abending the server quit regularly.  Upgrade to 5.01g did not solve the
problem until I started giving it smaller chunks per schedule.  The only
problem I've had with arcserve apart from the fact that it cannot do more
than a certain amount of files or certain amount of Mb is that it does
not handle the daily roll-over very well.  Will have a look at Arcserve
6.0 on Netware 4.10 as soon as both arrive.  The server wich caused the
abends are P90, 96Mb of RAM, running Btrieve for some apps, 9G consisting
of 5 volumes & about 800,000 - 900,000 files spread over the 9G.  It is
running NW 3.12.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:11:05 -0800
From: "Robert S. Sfeir" <robert@BUYSIDE.COM>
Subject: Re: Arcserve

>As I will be changing to NW 4.10 with SFT-III + upgrade storage to 12G,
>and mem to 128Mb are there any pitfalls to avoid especially concerning
>SFT-III except those noted in the FAQ.  The clients will be both IPX &
>Netware IP.

I can tell you that you should make sure that every single update MUST be
installed before you even install Arcserve, or you're gonna keep abending.
I don't know about Arcserve 6.0 (although I would love to hear what people
are saying about it) but 501g is solid as a rock on my server, and it is
running 8.5 gigs of duplexed storage, with dos, os2 and mac name spaces,
65MB ram on a P100.  No problems over here.  You have to make sure you read
a bunch of faxback info from Cheyenne as they made it super easy for you to
figure any problem out before calling them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:42:17 -0600
From: "Jim Erickson, CNE" <jrericks@CMONSTER.COUNTY.ANOKA.MN.US>
Subject: Upgrade to 4.1 on new server? - Reply

Your best bet is to do as everyone else is suggesting and use the migration
utility to upgrade you across-the-wire from your old 3.x server to your new
4.x server.  However, there are a few things you should be aware of before
proceeding.  They are pretty easy to get around so don't worry:

 (A) Across-the-wire migration does not migrate the users' passwords.
     This may not be a problem with 10 users but it is if you have 100.

 (B) The system login script is not migrated, although it is copied to
     the new server.  Its just not imported into the NDS tree container.

After having gone through this process several times, this is the general
procedure that has worked the best for me is:

1) Download the latest patches for NetWare 4.1 and the VLMs from Novell.

2) Set up at least one system (probably yours) with the VLMs so you can
   administer the new server.

3) Install NetWare 4.1 on your new server and make sure to install all of
   the patches.  Also make sure to have the INSTALL program install the
   migration utilities.

4) Make sure that a bindery context is set for the server as you will need
   it later.

5) Clean up any old bindery information that you haven't gotten around to
   yet (e.g. old accounts)

6) Run BINDFIX on the old server a couple of times.

7) Run NetSync on your new 4.1 and your old 3.x server to import all of the
   user information into the NDS tree (including their passwords).  This
   also upgrades some files on the 3.x server, such as LOGIN.EXE.

8) Just before you do the migration, stop running NetSync.

9) Get all of your users logged out.

10) Log into both servers as a bindery user with Supervisor rights.  Try
    to do this from the fastest workstation you have (with the fastest
    NIC) as this station will be doing most of the work during the
    migration.

11) Run the migration utility as outlined in the Upgrade manual that came
    with NW4.1.  Tell it to migrate everything and to NOT assign passwords
    for the users.  The whole migration process could take 15 minutes, or
    it could take 15 hours.  It depends on the amount of data you have and
    the amount of data in the bindery (and connection speed, server speed,
    etc.)

12) After running MIGRATE and before running MIGPRINT, go into NetAdmin
    (or NWAdmin) and delete the print queues and printers that NetSync
    created.  Make sure NetSync is NOT still running because it will
    delete the printer info on your 3.x server when you do it on the 4.1
    server.  When NetSync creates the printer info, it seems to create it
    with different object IDs, which means that devices such as HP
    JetDirect cards will not be able to find them correctly, even if they
    have the same name.

13) Run MIGPRINT, as outlined in the Upgrade manual, to migrate your old
    printer information

14) Copy the system login script to the login script of the container where
    the users will be logging in.  The easiest way to do this is to pull
    up the file \PUBLIC\NET$LOG.DAT (from either server) within Windows
    Notepad, select and copy the entire thing and paste it into the
    container login script via NWAdmin.

15) If you want the new Server to replace the old one completely, even in
    name, you can change the name in the AUTOEXEC.NCF of each server and
    reboot them.

16) Test a login from one of your users workstations to make sure
    everything works.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:54:58 +0100
From: Achim Stegmeier <x03@SUN0.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
Subject: Re: Arcserve 5.01g vs. Palindrome 4.0

>Can anyone tell me why I should use
>
>Arcserve 5.01g or Palindrome 4.0

>Which of them is:
>- most easy of use

Depends, Palindrome ( PBD ) is more a data management than just
a backup, therefore it is more complex. But one can understand
how it works if you spend some time with it and read the ( good )
documentation. To start you will only have to follow the
guidelines PBD provides and trust the system, later on you might
want to change things.
AS is much more simple, but I find the interface not very intuitive.

>- works best with NetWare 4.10 NDS

I'd call AS's NDS integration as non-existant, though there are
rumours that somebody has even managed to restore a NDS with AS.
PBD is fully NDS aware.

>- bug free, or at least produces less errors

For me, PBD, we did a lot AS installation, but with the upcoming
success of NW 4.1 and endless patch releases we abandoned it.
Since summer 95 we do PBD and havent regretted it yet.

>any other features I should know about

Have a look at www.palindrome.com and order a 45day live trial.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:45:44 +0100
From: Urban Svensson <urban@DKK.SE>
Subject: Palindrome 4.0 or ARCServe 5.01g

Additional feedback for the posting by Jan W. van Markus.

The bad reputation ARCServe somteimes has is mainly due to some
earlier releases of 5.01 which in many cases where indeed somewhat
moody. With the arrival of 5.01g things look much better. Taking the
normal configuration steps associated with this kind of product 5.01g
has prooved very stable in every case where everything else is up to
date.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:14:54 +0100
From: Simone Roth <100321.416@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Arcserve 5.01g vs. Palindrome 4.0

>>Arcserve 5.01g or Palindrome 4.0
>>
>>Which of them is:
>> - most easy of use
>> - works best with NetWare 4.10 NDS
>> - bug free, or at least produces less errors
>>
>>any other features I should know about
>>
>>Can anyone tell me about his/her experience with both or one of these 2.
>
>Currently using Arcserve succesfully. Many heartaches originally as it
>neatly shut the server down every time it tried to write to its database.
>Turned out to be a Btrieve conflict. BTW we are using 3.12.

We have Arcserve installed on our 5 Servers. (3.12). It "killed" the
servers so often that we decided to get a special backup server. Major
problem: restore.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:02:34 GMT
From: Dave Lehman <loewen@CYBERSPC.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: Anybody use Legato LDBU?

>If so, how do you like it? Does it automatically ignore
>CD-ROM's such as DiscPorts? Any way to configure to do full
>backups each night? Thanks for any reviews or tips.

I am using LDBU every night for backups at our head office. The product
seems to work well in the context for which it was designed--
a one-tape-drive-one-server backup environment.

In LDBU, you configure a "client" for each item you need to backup. So, I
have my main server client, and my NDS client. So "yes", CD-ROM's are
ignored, because you just don't create a client to back them up.

You can configure the schedule any way you want-- ie. I was performing a
full backup every night until my tape filled up. Now, I do an incremental
on weekdays, and a full every weekend.

Overall, I have been pleased with LDBU, because after you get it
configured, it works well, and the price is right-- $20!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:24:11 GMT
From: me <234134@PSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Migrating to a new server

Easiest method:

Run bindfix on the old server (run it twice, first time to fix, second
time to backup)

Copy the three bindfix files to the new server's system directory.
do a bindrest on the new server and the use migrate.exe to move
everything over

If you have the capability run the operation on a fast machine and
even better connect the two server with a 100MB setup (all you need
are 3 cards and a concentrator). i've migrated a 2 GB server like this
in 40 minutes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:05:44 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARCServe, SMS and Databases

	<omissions>
>I believe SMS has something to do with NDS backup and restore procedure.
>I'm not so sure on this so give Cheyenne a call.
>As far as compression goes, I don't think SMS has anything to do with it.
>
>>   Secondly, our ARCServe is running on a WAN with many IPX networks. I
>>   have tried filtering out these network numbers from within the
>>   'Database Configuration' include/exclude options, but it doesn't seem
>>   to work! I want to be able to track clients on our local network(s),
>>   so I don't want to load CLIENTS.NLM with the W=N parameter. Has anyone
>>   else experienced this, or found a solution? Our ASTPSDAT.DB file is
>>   over 50Mb now.
>
>IPX filtering works here.
>if you don't enable the client tracker, It will automatically scan your
>network every two hours or so.  If that is too much, enable the tracker at
>4am then turn it off at 4:01am.
>Daniel Tran - dtran@ucla.edu
---------
	A word of caution here. This may not apply to the current Arcserve
but it did apply in spades last year. Arcserve has attacked three servers
on this campus with packets as fast as it could go, continuously.
Apparently it went hunting for clients willy nilly, tried to force its way
into some juicy file servers, got thrown out on its ear, and it kept doing
this until unloaded. This caused some comment here, to put it mildly.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:25:24 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup Device's

> Well I've had a lot of problems lately with HP-Colorado backups from
>workstations.  Wich is what 90% of these networks have.  And of corse my
>clients don't call HP they call me.  I't seams that HP-colorado is having a
>very high hardware failer rate right now.  And some software problems.  And
>in some cases users can't run the system.  OK I have to admit I recomened
>some of these colorado systems.  Right now I think it was a bad thing to do.
> A few years ago I was useing colorado systems vertualy truble free.  So my
>delema is what do I recomend now?
>
>I'm having fairly good luck with Tanburg and NovaNet-NLM (by NovaStor).  And
>I have just tested the HP 2 GIG DAT drive with NovaNet-NLM. That looks ok so
>far (Just one week).
>
>1   I could go on and I do tend to ramble.  But in short what do you out
>there use for      backup system?
>
>2   If you recomeded one today what would it be?
>
>3   Would you recomed a workstation backup at all?

1. I usually use Palindrome. They had some teething problems on the 4.0
product (EVERYONE has problems with a new release of backup software,
especially on the server). While the software is rather complex if you want
to understand all of it, performing backups is dead-nuts simple, it TELLS
you which tapes need to be off site and when to return them, but the best
part is the way they view backup. I've never lost a file, even if it was a
temporary version of a document deleted three weeks ago! Arcada and
Cheyanne Arcserve are pretty good, too, although they don't compare with
Palindrome's comprehensive data protection concepts.

2. Without hesitation Palindrome. For small, simple systems use the Backup
Director, for larger systems that need HSM, multiple tape drives etc. use
Palindrome Storeage Manager.

3. No. For a number of reasons Novell does NOT recommend workstation based
backup, and their reasoning is pretty solid. Reliability, difficulty with
backup of other workstations, speed, security and the DOS 64 byte path
limit all conspire against WS based backup. And, of course there is no
workstation based backup that will handle NDS - Palindrome created a
utility that will do it, but it's only for emergencies, with NO guarentees
of reliability.

My best suggestion for solutions to your sales problem is to spell it out
like this:

Workstation based backup has maybe a 90% reliability when using automated
backup, server based backup (when debugged) has about 99.9% reliability for
any given night. (I am pulling figures out of the air, but ones based on
experience.) This means that in a year's time, workstation backup will fail
about 37 times, server based backup will fail .3 times. Now if you need to
restore one or more NEW OR TEMPORARY files once each week (such as
accounting data), you won't have the copy you need about 4 times a year for
workstation backup, or about 1 time every 30 years for server backup.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:11:44 -1000
From: DARRYL PANG <DPANG@QUEENS.HAWAII.ORG>
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Backup Device's -Reply

Here's some answers to your questions.

>1   I could go on and I do tend to ramble.  But in short what
>do you out there use for backup system?  

We still use Intel's Storage Express, 4G/8G
uncompressed/compressed backup system.  Intel
Technical Support seems okay although the only time I've
called them was for a replacement drive which came in 48
hours.  The systems itself resides on a token ring network
and is only one hop away from the ring that has the
"important" servers on it.

>2   If you recomeded one today what would it be? 

We're looking at other vendors now because our backups
are one, taking longer and two, will probably exceed 8G
within the next 2 months on the full backups.

My basic requirements are: differential, incremental, and full
backup capabilities.  Capacity for 10G+ (may have to go to
multiple tapes).  Possibility of a Fuzzy Logic application
such that files in use will be able to be backed up later when
the files are released (it is hard in a 24 hour Clinical
Environment).  Media type is perferably 8mm.  

>3   Would you recomed a workstation backup at all?

If you have the capacity and time for it, you may want to
"selectively" backup some data from the user's site.  In
particular, I don't backup  user's data but there is a form that
all users sign upon gaining a sigon to our network stating
that personal data should be backed up accordingly.

This is not the ideal situation but could a parallel port
backup device (such as the Jumbo Tracker) be shared
amongst your different users in an office?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:27:36 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup Device's -Reply

Darryl,

<snip>

>We're looking at other vendors now because our backups
>are one, taking longer and two, will probably exceed 8G
>within the next 2 months on the full backups.
>
>My basic requirements are: differential, incremental, and full
>backup capabilities.  Capacity for 10G+ (may have to go to
>multiple tapes).  Possibility of a Fuzzy Logic application
>such that files in use will be able to be backed up later when
>the files are released (it is hard in a 24 hour Clinical
>Environment).  Media type is perferably 8mm.

You're answering two questions here. The first is backup logic, and is why
I recommend Palindrome. Not only is it better at accessing open files than
anything else (important, because many files are NEVER closed, although
quiescent) but your problem, size of backups is something that was solved
in the mainframe environment a long time ago. Palindrome actually came from
a mainframe environment, and does much more than "full, differential, and
incremental backups".

For example, my home office consists of a Power mac with a 1 gig HD,
a 4.10 server with a total of 660 megs, and a laptop with 720 megs.
I'm fully protected every night (the server is a 386/20 with only
16 megs, so it's pretty slow), I've had it running for 2 months now,
and keep 3 copies of every changed file. How big's my tape library you
ask? I'm up to 5 tapes, partly filled. A client with 8 gigs to protect
has two library sets for a total of about 50 tapes - but they have
3 copies of every changed cad file for 4 years! Pretty impressive, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:59:38 +0100
From: Achim Stegmeier <x03@SUN0.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE>
Subject: Re: What about Palindrome?

>I know a lot of folks have opinions about Arcserve, and I've experienced
>many heartaches courtesy of the folks at Cheyenne myself, but is anyone
>actually using a recent release of Palindrome's product?  If so, what are
>your thoughts about it?
>
>I am preparing to install a new 3.12 server, and after my
>experiences w/ Arcserve, thought I'd give Palindrome a try.

We've abandonned ArcServe completely in favour of Palindrome.
Haven't it regretted a single day.

We did some evaluating of different products esp. regarding
NDS integration before that decision.

Latest version we've installed is 4.0b, but there is a 4.0b2.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:08:31 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Backup Device's

>We also have an Intel Storage Express evaluation unit.  For me, its biggest
>selling point is that the software and hardware are from the same vendor.  No
>finger pointing.  The windows interface and reporting capabilities are also
>nice.  The unit does have some problems however and the $15,000 price tag is
>a consideration.

John, the software and hardware are NOT from the same vendor - Intel simply
packages them together. The software is Arcserve 5.01, probably rev G if
you've kept up. I've always felt the best feature is the explicit placement
of backup in a separate box - it makes maintenance easier, if you have to
take things down during the day.

>We are looking to get away from tape entirely and move to some sort of CD
>device.  I haven't heard any responses to your post mention CD technology in
>use.  Maybe someone can offer opinions.

CD-R is great if you're just restoring a couple of files, but even with a
quad speed CD they're slower than tape. (36 megs/min) Sure they're great
for random access, but that's not the way many files are restored. An
optical drive, on the other hand, is quite a bit faster - about as fast as
hard drives just a couple years old, and the media has a much longer shelf
life. The only thing you've got to contend with there is the media cost -
around $100/gig, vs $3.25/gig for 90 meter 4mm DAT; DLT tapes are pretty
close if I remember correctly. If you've got a good data management system
the cost of media won't eat you alive, but it's not cheap.

OTOH, optical is GREAT if you're implementing HSM, especially as an
intermediate media on the way to tape for archives.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:38:51 +0100
From: "David W. Hanson" <dhanson@AFRC1.GARMISCH.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Anyone using Conner 4Gb tape backup?

>Is anyone using a Conner 4000 (4 Gb) SCSI tape backup with their
>file server?

We use the Conner MS4000 and 4000+ DAT here, and are very
happy with them.

>I'm thinking about including one in a new LAN.  I would imagine
>it would work with just about any SCSI tape backup software such
>as ARCServe.

I have never had any problem getting backup software to recognize
these drives.  I will continue to specify them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 19:56:39 -0500
From: "Larry C. Hansford" <hansford@ERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Anyone using Conner 4Gb tape backup?

>Is anyone using a Conner 4000 (4 Gb) SCSI tape backup with their
>file server?
>
>I'm thinking about including one in a new LAN.  I would imagine
>it would work with just about any SCSI tape backup software such
>as ARCServe.

Yes, I am using them in 2 different servers (on different networks).  It
works fine, and it comes packaged with Arcada BackupExec NLM software.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:23:48 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu, <s9506856@cougar.vut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Netware Partition Table

>I am virtually 100% positive that all of my netware partion side data is
>still there.....I am desperate to recover data of this partition as it
>has alot of my CNE school work on there...
>
>If anyone has ABSOLUTELY any ideas on maybe how i can recover from this
>disaster it would be much appreciateed...

I'm 95% positive that your NetWare partition has been stepped on - probably
just the first sector or two, just enough to make it unmountable. IF the
data is critical, and IF you don't have a backup, try one of the data
recovery services. They can work near miracles, and will be able to recover
almost all the drive. I'm sure it won't be cheap, however. Contact Ontrack
@ 1-(800)872-2599. Then buy a tape drive, please? This happens to all of
us, and it's painful to watch.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:49:12 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moving data to new server

>I've just bought a new file server and have install enough of Netware
>3.12 to allow me to login but not all. I've restored from the previous
>nights backup. My question is moving over the data from the current
>day. Do I need to restore from a backup again or can I just copy the
>users directory over to the new server, I'm wondering if the network
>rights will be over-written or will not recognise the copied data.
-------
	You need some basics to survive the task. The bindery is not
copy-able directly since the files are open, hidden, system. Run BINDFIX
twice to get them as ordinary files with .OLD extensions. Trustee rights
are part of the directory structure, not in the bindery, and only special
programs (including competent NW tape backup programs) can deal with them.
NCOPY does NOT move trustee rights. Thus we recommend using tape.
	Restoration order is bindery.OLD files, run BINDREST, then files
and trustee rights.
	If you move files to another volume then be aware that ownership
will change and you will have to re-owner-ise the files. Please see this
week's listserver traffic for that item.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:02:12 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Backup options

>I'm tired of using up 4 DAT tapes for every week's backup so I'm looking
>at the DLT option but I'm having a REAL problem finding them.
----------
	DLTs are advertized all over, and they aren't cheap.
	Consider cheaper solutions: DAT autochanger or a set of DAT drives.
If your backup software can't handle either then consider using Arcada
BackupExec which can. For DAT drives have a careful look at HP Surestore
5000 (C1533A mechanism) DDS-2 drives for speed and capacity (4GB raw on
120M tapes). HP makes a changer version of it too. Half the cost of a DLT.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:43:47 -0500
From: jim prato <jim.prato@ACCESS.TEXAS.GOV>
Subject: SCSI DAT

HP has several 4mm DAT drives that are available as OEM "bare" drives
as well as bundled with Cheyene software (Arcserve/solo). The later are
marketed under the Jetstore name. Many third party brands use HP OEM
drives as well.

There is a fair amount of material available from their various Fax
back numbers.

For drive/tape specs, try 1-800-231-9300, docs:  57706, 57707, 57708,
57709. An index is available as well. These are models: C1533A (DDS-2),
45480A, 4570A. The C1533A is the latest and greatest (up to 8 gig with
hardware compression), with some discussion here as recently as last
month. Check out the FAQ for this group.

For Jetstore products try 1-800-333-1917, docs: 7511, 7528, 7594,
7596, 7597, 57707,and 57730. Order the index to check out other HP
products.

These numbers are in the US.

If you are hardware "handy" the OEM route will save you money ($900
or so street), but make sure that all of the pieces/parts will be
compatible.

We have both the 45480A and C1533A,  Networkr for Netware, on Adaptec
1542c. We use this (spare/separate) controller to keep the DAT drives
separate from the hard disks(on Adaptec 2940). This system is in the
server.

Plan to spend big bucks ($ 2-3 K or more) to get a full blown,
automated system.

Cannot over-emphasize need for regular tape cleaning.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:25:33 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Backups

>Does anyone know of a good optical drive backup system that can backup 20
>to 50 gigabytes for a NW 4.1 network?  Currently we are using Arcada Backup
>and cheap tape drives.

Bear in mind that you're looking at moving from an inexpensive media (tape)
with capacities to back up your network on one or two tapes to an expensive
media that typically holds 1 gig per platter. Let's look at the math for a
typical system:

At about $100 per platter, that means for a full backup of a 50 gig network
you're looking at $5000 for media costs per full nightly backup. If you use
Grandfather Father Son rotation coupled with incremental nightly backups, a
resonable scenario for backup protection would give you 2 nightly backup
platters 4 nights/week (assuming a 3% daily file change), 250 weekly
platters (5 weeks x 50 platters), and 600 monthly platters (12 months x 50
platters). This gives media cost of $85,800 ((600 + 250 + 8 ) x
$100/platter) for one year, this should really be an annual cost. In
addition, this type of system MUST use robotics unless you're paying
someone to change platters, not a good choice!

Now, let's look at my favorite - Palindrome. Using the defaults of Tower of
Hanoi, with 5 datasets and 3 copies of each protected file, we're down to
needing 150 platters for the initial full protection permanant saveset plus
a likely 10 platters per dataset for temporary files. Add in a likely
1%/week permanantly changed files, this gives a growth rate of .5 platters
per week, or total of 226 platters or $22,600 per year. BUT the annual data
storage cost will not be $60,000 (600 monthly platters each year), but
closer to $2600 (26 permanant storage platters)! You still need the
robotics, but the price has come down from the sky.

I'd ask myself: Why choose optical? It has it's place, particularly if
you're looking for a longer lasting media. How valuable is your data, what
can you afford, and is there a less expensive alternative? If you're THAT
worried about it, consider a combination - permanant savesets on tape, with
incrementals on optical.

------------------------------

