
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOV-CNE1.DOC -- 19960219 -- Email thread on NetWare and CNE certification
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	Feel free to add or edit this document and then email
	it back to faq@jelyon.com




Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 12:25:07 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@USU.BITNET>
Subject: Re: College for CNE was (Real CNE vs. pa

>>Am I the only one who feels that Colleges do not support networking
>>as a degree program?  I have seen offerings for a BS in Micro Electronic
>>Engineering, Compuer Programing, even one for the Management of Information
>>Systems, but with the sole exception of DeVry (telecom program), I have
>>not seen an offering for a BS in anything that comes close to Networking.
>
>I believe Carnegie-Mellon (CMU) began offering a BS in Computer Networking a
>couple of years ago.
----------
	University level degree programs come in two flavors: accredited
and not accredited. The latter are worth the paper they are written on.
Accredition is a very complicated business, and the accredition agency
insists upon wide and deep requirements not just in a particular field
but also the general education and technical electives areas.

	Computer networking is not a sufficiently standalone field to
qualify. It's part CS and part EE, with a thin layer of MIS. The mix of
students in my courses are about the same: half CS, half EE, one or two MIS.
Courses devoted to one vendor's product line are not academic credit items,
let alone degree programs. Yes, some MIS/Business colleges try to give credit
for knowing how to be a NW server operator.

	Degrees with lots of qualifiers after the name are often not
accredited, so be careful about those programs. A BSEE with emphasis in say
computer networking is a degree in EE.

	Computer networking is taught fairly widely at the University level.
Alas, lots of the professors aren't active practitioners. One's mileage may
vary. Normally computer networking is a graduate level area, because there
is insufficient time in the undergraduate program and because most undergrads
aren't ready to deal with the level of complexity found in networking. This
I know from practical experience trying to teach the stuff. Undergrads
typically ask "will this topic/course get me a higher starting salary?" and
if the answer is not a clear yes then they want a course which will with
little effort. Grad students are there for the information, to oversimplify
the matter. Undergrads typically want courses by-the-book, grad students
are expected to treat texts as limited, out of date, and partly wrong so they
scramble for more information from everywhere.

	Univ courses aren't required to be productive in computer networks.
Knowledge is. Academic credentials are useful, no question, but even with
them a person needs to spend lots of time keeping up todate. What schooling
teaches is breadth (stuff you would not bother with on your own), depth
(ditto), long term fundamentals and frameworks, and how to keep learning and
producing.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 16:25:01 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@USU.BITNET>
Subject: Re: College for CNE was (Real CNE vs. paper CNE)

	<much omitted>
>I would like to see a program that started with the desktops (MAC, DOS,
>Windows), then moved to topologies and protocals, then covered both UNIX and
>Novell NOS, then offered several options like troubleshooting, telephony
>connections (ISDN, 56kb, etc), management of shared resources, SQL via a
>network, distributed databases, etc.

	Part of what you mention are application specifics rather than
fundamentals. It's difficult to teach a course just on fundamentals, though
many try, so there are normally many real-life situations discussed.
	Teaching folks how to configure a DOS/MAC/Unix machine is not an
academic course; it's a technician level operation. Troubleshooting is
in the same category. Learning about designs of file systems, virtual
memory strategies, kernels, remote procedures, whatnot, are academic items
within a course. Hands on examples are great, and some programs use them as
supplements. The products we see today are subset implementations of these
concepts, under very strong constraints. It's nice to know what could be,
and why, when constraints change; after all, we've dealt with these things
for thirty and more years.

>What gives?
>
>Maybe I could convince a College to award an independent study degree?  :-)
>Of couse, unless it was close by, I would have to do the course work via
>coorespondance.

	No, there aren't independent study degrees, not accredited ones,
except for some special DoD cases (contract arrangements). Correspondence
courses take a heck of a lot of Univ resources to support, after such a
program is approved (eons). There is usually insufficient person-power to
support such programs, given the already overburdening occuring with regular
classes. In addition, there is much more to a degree program than just
the most interesting courses (how's you math?).

>What would be REALY nice would be a college that would evaluate my (soon to
>be) CNE, UNIX trainging, and course work already completed; and tell me what
>requirements need to be met to award such a degree.

	Ok, I'll level with you. Courses taken outside need to be validated,
and by normal Univ rules the courses would need to be taught at an accredited
institution. That says much practical experience may not count for college
credit, and its true. On the other hand, all that experience comes into play
during courses to add depth, corrections to the instructor, and context.

	Example: for most of my undergrad years I knew more about the (EE)
subject material than my classmates, even before I started college. I acquired
it by self study and much practical (and professional) experience. Yet I had
to take all the classes the same as everyone to get any credit. My FCC licenses
counted for nothing, alas. [That's like a CNE where the vendor is the US Gov
and the subject matter is all of commercial radio and TV broadcast, technical
and the regulations.]  Once the degrees were finished, a long time ago, I
was on my own to stay current and progress. Considering that I started on
machines before solid state devices and operating systems were invented that
meant I had to learn all the modern stuff myself, using the tools and basic
understandings acquired in school. That's true today too, and applies to
almost all professionals. Schooling is supposed to teach us how to do this,
as well as give practical professional information at that epoch.

>Am I pipe dreaming again?
	Some, but dreaming is consideration of what might be, and that can
be good. To acquire college degrees the system is to go to college in the
desired program. Writing to institutions for catalogues is a starting
point. Second Batchelor's degrees are not unheard of.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 10:21:04 LCL
From: Gregory Kirk <gkirk@GKIRK.WIN.NET>
Subject: Real CNE vs. paper CNE

A CNE certification is just that, cetification that the holder met a
certain MINIMUM standard on a series of test.  That's what a
Bachelor's, Masters or Doctorate is, certification that a given
individual met a certain minimum standard as measured through
examinations, research papers & theses.  Who hires somone just because
they have a given degree?  There is the Interview and a review of
their experience & references.

The following is my OPINION of why things happened they way they did.
I was involved in the industry at the time, and saw  the developments
first hand, but have had no contact with anybody whom made the
decisions.

At the time that the CNE program was started Novell was on the horns of
a dilema, on the one hand they had a large reseller base that
installed and supported their products in some cases well, in others
poorly, and on the other hand were faced with a growing number of self
promoting "NetWare Consultants", many of whom had little expertise.

In order to preserve NetWare's image as a premiere product Novell
instituted the CNE program, as a method of certifying NetWare support
providers, and backed it with a large advertising campaign to build up
public demand for CNE's.  It worked all to well, pushing the salaries
of the early CNE's to great heights.  With complaints from their
dealers and customers, Novell changed the testing methods, made it
easier to schedule the tests,and some say lowered the standard.  The
result was an increase in the number of CNE's.

In response to criticisms about current "Paper CNE's" Novell has afain
changed the testing procedure, especially on the Netware Service
&Support test.  Novell has changed the tests to meet customer demands
and expectations, and if anyone expects them to respond otherwise,
they are being foolish.  If Novell stops being customer driven, it will
die, and then your (and my) CNEs will be worth nothing.

Do I feel that the seven adaptive test were easier than the 100+
questions monsters taken by freinds of mine a few years back?
Probably.  Is that wrong?  I don't think so.  the adaptive tests by
picking from a huge pools of questions made it more difficult to cram
for the CNE tests by memorizing questions and answers.  It's not
perfect, but what is ?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 23:34:27 -0500
From: "Siva K. Vejalla" <vejallas@MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>
Subject: List of CNE study material available for CNE/CNA.

I am trying to compile a list of few useful study guides/free software
useful for the preparation of CNE/CNA.

I think it is a good begining to start a useful list of CNE study
material.  You are all welcome to improve on this list and I wish someone
will make use of it and comes up with a good CNE/CNA faq which will be useful
to all the aspiring CNEs/CNAs like me.

Below a list of Books/Publishers/Training institutes, which may be
useful for the preparation of CNE exams, is given.

NRP: New Riders Publishing has released the 2nd edition of their
NetWare(CNE) Training Guide series.  It's divided into 4 books.
1. Managing Netware Systems (Covers 2.x and 3.x Admin and Adv Admin).
2. Networking Technologies (Covers Net Tek, Service and Support, and
   the Fund. of DOS & MicroComputer concepts).
    (The above two books are written by Debra Niedermiller-Chaffins and
     few other authors)
3. Netware 4 Administration (Covers the 4.x tests).
4. Netware 4 Update (For those of you wanting the update rather than
   the whole 4.x track).
    (The above two books(3 & 4) are written by Karanjit Siyan)
The first vol. costs $69.95 and the rest of the books cost $89.95 each.

All the books include the course objectives and loads of review questions.
One can buy the set of books piece by piece as one needs the books.

Novell's CNE study guide        Clarke, David J.        $79.95
Novell's CNA study guide                                $49.95
(Both the above books are distributed by SYBEX Inc.)

JSENOTES: This CNE study material is available by anonymous FTP

protocol:       ftp
machine:        info.umd.edu
directory:      /software/Novell/Training
file:           jsenotes.zip
description:  Study notes for several CNE-related courses.  These
		outlines were authored by Jay Elvove of the University
		of Maryland, College Park's Computer Science Center.
		Contained here are study materials for the following
		courses: NetWare 3.11 System Manager, NetWare 3.11
		Advanced System Manager, Networking Technologies,
		NetWare NFS, NetWare Service and Support, and NetWare
		TCP/IP Transport.  The notes are in WordPerfect 5.1
		format (4/6/94).
(Note: First download the file CONTENTS which will give a brief
description of the various files that are available in that directory.)
The file is also available via gopher to info.umd.edu.  Traverse the
menus starting with Computing Resources, then Software, then Novell,
and then Training.

WAVE Technologies: This company offers a CNE Study Guide for $295.00
and a software package they call CNE Challenge (a bank of 2700
questions in 19 subject areas of the CNE tests) also for $295.00. I don't have
any TelePhone # or address of this company.

ON Technology Corporation: It also offers similar type of study
guides/CNE challenge as above company at almost the same cost. It also offers
a special CNE study bundle at the cost of $495/-. Contact 1-800-381-5686

NPA: Network Professional Association. It is a association of CNEs and
people involved in the maintanence of the networks. You can use the
good contacts you make at their local chapter meetings and get useful
information/material from the real CNE's. You can reach NPA at
1-800-GAY-PAAS(429-7227) or (801) 429-7227. NPA also publishes a
monthly magazine focussed towards CNE's.

[Floyd: But apparently, only (800) 892-7208 works - thx Rich Ballard]

NAEC: Novell Authorised Education Centers. These are so called
'Authorised' training centers. They charge at least $500/- for each
course for 3 or 4 days classes. Some of the NAEC's offer self study guides
too.  But approaching NAEC's  should be the last resort unless one can spare
at least $5000/- or unless one's company sponsors. For more information
about nearest NAEC call 1-800-NETWARE

CNEQUIZR: This software is written by Rene Caron of CYBER PASS INC.
and is available for download on Compuserve.  You can contact the author at
'ab708@freenet.carleton.ca'. The programs offer multiple choice test
questions very similar to the ones you'll see on the real test.  Even
better, they give you the right answer along with great background information
on almost every question.  You can buy programs that cover each test
individually for about $25 each (including C-serve's "postage" fee) or
you can get the "Complete CNE Bundle" for around $120. CNEQUIZR is a quick
system, a lot quicker  and a lot cheaper than taking the NEAC courses
anyway.

Bay Connections, a reseller charges $175 for the newly modified full
package (includes all electives, including TCP/IP and all 4.0 exams as
well whether or not you want the 4.0).

 However, CYBER PASS, Rene's own place, sells the full package direct
at 1-800-255-3763. One can download it from their BB that day once the
charge card is processed for $99 (!).  That's 14 quizzes and A LOT of
well-done questions with added info and page-pointers for studying.

The various Training institutes/Education centers that give some sort
of CNE training are given below.

East Coast Network Training Services:           1-800-475-3130
It offers both classroom based & computer based training and
self study kits are also available.

MDI: Mutual Data Incorporated                   1-800-883-4MDI
	CNE Program(108 hrs. of Classes)                : $3000/-

MSI: Micro Support Inc.                         1-212-689-5549
	Class room coaching available for lot of tests, each ranging
	from $900/- to $1700/-.

PC Age: Computer & LAN Training centre    (201) 882-5370
	11 day intensive CNE program            : $3300/-
	Self Study kit                                  : $245/-

XINCON Technologies Inc.                                (212) 689-5549
	CNE 10 week training                            : $1400/-
	CNA  4 week training                            : $600/-

Some general books about Novell Netware. These may not be directly
relevant to CNE/CNA, but are useful in learning Netware.

1. Netware Supervisor's Guide           -  John T. McCann
2. Netware Server                       -  Edward Liebing
3. The Novell Companion         -  Jon Johnston
   [Note: Publisher is WEKA Publishing.  Phone # 1-800-222-WEKA]
4. Novell's guide to Netware 3.12 networks      $35/- (SYBEX publishing)
   [It is distributed by Bay Connection Corp.(josepha@world.std.com)]
   [It comes with CNE Quiz demo program/Netware Assessment test]
5. LAN connectivity -   Published by New Rider Publishing.
   [Basically it's a networking technologies course in book form]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 22:29:49 -0500
From: John Navarro <jnavarro@MGH.COM>
Subject: Re: CNA test...hard?
To: Multiple recipients of list NOVELL <NOVELL@SUVM.SYR.EDU>

>I'm getting a (basically) free CNA test study group session as a followup
>to a good class I took with New Horizons (using Wave Tech's notebook).
>I don't know if I'll be ready for the test right away, though.
>
>Those of you who've taken the test:  how's it administered (on a pc?) and
>what should I be thinking psychologically/philosophically in terms of
>studying?  (i.e. think to study weak areas, details, what?)

If I may speak freely......

I have taken this test and it is both relatively hard and stupid!  Most of the
questions don't have anything to do with administering a network.  One
question was "What menu position will a certain option be found"!  Who cares!
You look at the menu and pick it.  I got that question right only because I
used printcon a lot that month.  Another question, "What utility do you use
to restore a volume backuped with sbackup?"  Sbackup of course, but they had
an answer of srestore and other.  They try to trick you at every turn.  I
have designed, built, and suported many lans and found this test very stupid.
And if you didn't know, the test are adaptive.  The you get, the harder the
test is.

Sorry if I sound ffustrated, but this subject brings back some bad memories.
Good luck to you.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 24:44:00 EST
From: Fund@PROTEON.COM
Subject: Re: CNE/CNA Course and Certification Recommendations

>The CNA (Certified Network Administrator) test from Novell is pretty
>expensive (for me at least, being a graduate student)... In order to get
>your CNA, you have to take two tests, each costing $85 ... AND "They" say
>that the minimum cost of study guides are about $150 together (one book for
>the Novel Administration test and one for the Micro/Dos test) .. so to
>get your CNA will end up costing you $300 MINIMALLY.... you could always
>get the "fancy" study guides and pay an additional $300 or so.... Another
>option is the CNE (Certified Novell Engineer), which could end up costing
>you $5000-$6000+ ... (and the ECNE, which costs even more $)
>
>I may be a bit pessimistic, but unless a company is willing to pay your
>way through these tests, I don't think they are worth it.  Unless you
>just have money to burn, that is.

A number of us studied the CNE materials, to learn first and foremost.
Passing the tests was just a formality that brings along a little
recognition.  I guess it's all in your objective.  If it's do what
you can to pass the exams only, then yo might be right.  You will
forget the stuff fast and will lack the practical hands-on experience.
That does not make for a great CNE or CNA either.

If your objective is to learn, then perhaps you will dig deeper and
retain some of it to boot.  If you couple to learning with hands-on
LAN management experience, you get the most for your time and dollar
investment.

***** Start of possible FAQ inclusion *****

As you know, you do not have to take the official courses or use the
official books.  I for one, recommend using the New Riders Publishing
Series for your CNE/CNA needs.  These books are very complete and give
you the necessary info to pass the exams on your own.  You have to put
in the time, but its all in there as they say.

Try these:

NetWare Training Guide, Networking Technologies, Second Edition,
New Riders Publishing, ISBN # 1-56205-309-4, List $69.95

  *    DOS/Microcomputer Concepts
  *    NetWare Service and Support
  *    Networking Technologies

NetWare Training Guide, Managing NetWare Systems, Third Edition,
New Riders Publishing, ISBN # 1-56205-366-3, List $70, Test Prep
Disk Included

  *    NetWare 3.1x Administration
  *    NetWare 3.1x Advanced Administration
  *    DOS/Microcomputer Concepts
  *    NetWare 2.2 System Manager
  *    NetWare 2.2 Advanced System Manager
  *    Certified NetWare 2.2 Administrator

NetWare Training Guide, NetWare 4 Administration, New Riders Publishing,
ISBN # 1-56205-240-3, List $89.95, Test Prep Disk Included

  *    NetWare 4 Administration
  *    NetWare 4 Advanced Administration

NetWare Training Guide, NetWare 4 Update, New Riders Publishing,
ISBN # 1-56205-285-3, List $89.95

  *    NetWare 3.x to 4.X Update

If you are the video type of person, I recommend the following VCR series
of 5 tapes.  This does not take the place of the above mentioned books, but
does a fine job of supplementing the learning.  NetWare 2.x and 3.x are
covered.  No 4.x yet:

"So you wanna be a CNE?!, David James Clarke IV Instructor, United Education
Centers, 50 South Main, Pleasant Grove, UT  84062, (800) 877-4889,
List $495 For The Set

  *    Module 1- CNE Fundamentals
  *    Module 2- NetWare Administration
  *    Module 3- NetWare Advanced Administration
  *    Module 4- Troubleshooting and Optimization
  *    Module 5- Networking Technologies

By the way, be sure to pick up the latest Windows based, Novell certification
test exams.  They can be FTP'd from your favorite Novell/mirror site.  Look
in NOVLIB\01.  Download the three self extracting zip files, CERT1.EXE,
CERT2.EXE and CERT3.EXE  These practice exams are free.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:00:33 -0500
From: Wayne Joyner <wjoyner@PINN.NET>
Subject: Re: NOVELL Digest - 15 Nov 1994

I have just completed taking all the classes I need for ECNE/CNI. Just
need to take couple of test and I'll have it. Fill out the application to
Novell with a nice price tag for enrollment, and have CNI.

For CNA you need to take Course Number 508 Netware 3.1x Administration,
Course 1100 DOS for Netware Users. Take the associated test and Novell
will mail you a CNA Certificate, some LOGOS and rules for there use.

Now if you want ECNE/CNI like me and you have a lot of money to spend. CNI's
have to take the classes for most those they indeend to teach in. And you
must pass each test with a 90% or better.

I chose to take the Netware 3.1x and Unixware product routes. Since I
work in both of them all day long. You must have to take what Novell
calls core product courses then several electives. The core classes
include Admininstration (508) and (518) Advanced Admininstration,
Installation & Configuration (802), 3.11 to 4.0 Upgrade (526), Service &
Support (801), Networking Technologies (200) - Getting ready to change in
January. I took Unixware Installation & Configuration, Advanced System
Admininstration, System Admininstration. I took as electives
Netware NFS (610), TCP/IP (605). The bottom line is. Be prepared to make
a commitment to a quality product, with exceptional education available.

Bruce Wayne Joyner, CNA
Compuserve 71513.131
Internet   wjoyner@pinn.net  (804)/498-9762
Virginia Beach, VA - USA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:58:05 EST
From: Frank Ramsey <t456b20@GOODYEAR.COM>
Subject: Paper CNE'sesta

>The funny thing I read in a technotrade mag recently is that most
>businesses would rather hire someone with a CNE, than not, obviously,
>none of those guys in the corner penthouse offices have spent an entire
>weekend rebuilding a system that was trashed when a paper CNE had a brain
>fart.
>
>I think Novell should create an sort of apprenticeship for CNE's.  Like
>something like this:
>
>	CNE candidates must have 2 years experience working
>	under another CNE.
>
>	ECNE's candidates must have 1 year as a CNE, and 1 year
>	working under an ECNE.
>
>	CNI candidates must have 3 years experience as a ECNE
>	with 1 year under a CNI.
>
>You could substitute experience under a CNE, ECNE or CNI with double that
>experience, ie CNE candidates could either go 2 years under a CNE or
>4 years experience on their own, etc.
>
>What does everyone think?

It would seem the industry already has a metric that works.  The metric is a
Registered Professional Engineer.  The designation of Professional Engineer is
obtained only after obtaining the base education (4 years at an approved
engineering school) and experience in the industry for a total of 10 years.
You must pass two 8 hour tests, the first on general engineering knowledge,
the second on problem solving ability.  Once all this is done, you get a
certificate from the state and are licensed to practice as an Engineer in
the state.

Novell's CNE/ECNE/CNI program is the envy of the industry.  Not only does it
provide money for various Novell partners (training centers, testing centers,
books, ...) and Novell, it provides Novell customers with some qualifications
to request and use as means of establishing base level qualifications.

The method proposed above is similar to those use in the trades, electrician, pl
 umbing, ... .   This came from the guild system in the Middle Ages to insure a
 limited number of craftsman and keep the price up.

No one said CNE's are perfect.  We make mistakes.  I really wonder how it's
possible to pass some of the CNE tests without ever having seen a server, but
guess it's possible.  And there are many very knowledgeable people in Netware
that are not CNE.  Look at CNE as a base level to get your foot in the door
so you can prove your real worth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 10:04:00 EST
From: Terry Antworth <TANTWORT+aPOSTOFF1%Ropes_&_Gray@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Paper CNEs

The first article I posted on the Paper CNEs issue raised a couple of
rebuttals, and I would like to respond to those.  Additionally, I am going to
respond to two other Paper CNEs articles.

First, A. Grant (ag129@UCS.CAM.AC.UK) asked how one could learn
more about CNEs, basically finding an independent assessment, as
opposed to the value of a CNE in the job market.

In response to that I would first say that one should call (in the U.S.):
(800) NETWARE (or 1-800-638-9273), hit 3, hit 1, etc.

Also, I don't know of any independent rating service.  But I would like to
respond that in a way a CNE is like a college degree -- it means that one
took time to study and pass the tests, but may or may not have any
experience.  I personally have a CNA and CNE (totally self-study), and
prior to that I did a BS in CS and an MBA.  I think that getting a college
degree and/or a CNE is a great starting point, but it is just that: a starting
point.  If I were a prospective employer, I would definitely want to hire a
CNE, but I would also look for experience and perhaps, most importantly,
COMMON SENSE!  Again, the CNE is not a certificate of godhood; for that
matter I've seen college graduates (straight A students) who didn't know
their butt from their elbow (again, how about the merits of possessing
some common sense and problem solving ability -- very difficult to
measure in an interview or test or personality inventory test).


Secondly, Jay Pfaffman (pfaffman@PILOT.NJIN.NET) wrote that it is
difficult to design a reliable test that would weed out the bozos without
turning away good candidates.  In this case, I can only agree with Jay,
pointing again to the paragraph I wrote above.


Thirdly, Timothy C. King (TKING-RG@MCIMAIL.COM) wrote that one
should not be able to attain a CNE without doing a server installation.
That is a good point, but for someone like me, it was not really practical.
As stated in the first article, I did my CNE totally self-study.  To take the
NetWare Service & Support class would have meant shelling out $1,745
of my own money -- with a student loan and a mortgage to pay, it would
have been rather tough.  Therefore I opted to spend $350 and obtain
re-imbursement from my company.


Finally, Richard Letts (R.J.Letts@SALFORD.AC.UK) wrote that he sat the
exams in one afternoon, and that the tests weren't worth keeping up
with and did not give him any significant knowledge (except an ego
boost).  He did admit, however, that he took them prior to the advent of
the adaptive test.  When I went through the process, the CNA and the
first five CNE tests (DOS, SysMan, AdSysMan, NetTech & NetSrvSpt)
were all adaptive -- quite tough.  My two CNE electives were
conventional, however (3.11 to 4.0 Upt & TCP/IP) but still tough.  I can
only suggest that Richard go and take one or two to see what it's like
now.  Also, getting back to my original argument, a CNE is a starting
point, not a certificate to end all certificates.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 22:53:47 GMT
From: Doug Dickey <ddickey@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: CNE classes.

:    We are looking into takeing CNE training this year(my boss and I)
:and were looking at Wave Technologies INC out of ST Louis MO.  Does anyone
:have any recommendations, good or bad, for these people, or perhaps a
:recommendation for some other company??  Let me know if you do.

If you have a fax machine handy call 1-800-233-3382, option 2, and ask
for doc# 1000, which is a catalog of their faxback docs.  Then, find the
doc# for the region you live in to get a listing of NAECs (Novell
Authorized Education Center) in your area faxed to you.  Call the one
closest to you for details on classes, self-study info, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 19:38:24 -0500
From: Tom Milliner <TOMMILLINER@DELPHI.COM>
Subject: Re: Netware Support Encyclopedia

Your local bookstore may have a hardcover book by David James Clarke on
studying to become a CNE (Novell Press)--it comes with a fairly recent
NSEPro CDRom.

TomMilliner@Delphi.Com    (214) 438-6932
Chief Fiscal Officer, Parker College

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 23:40:15 -0500
From: "Larry C. Hansford" <hansford@ERI.ERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Price comparisons for Novell Text

>   Could anyone give me an idea of how much these manuals should
> cost or of where I can get a price quote for them ?

The Novell Price List has most of the following study guides -- they
can be ordered from any Novell Reseller.  I put the Novell price by
those that are listed:

> NV1100/1101-DOS/Microcomputer Concepts -- $225 (Classroom)
> NV105-Introduction to Networking  -- $295 (CBT)
> NV200-Networking Technologies -- $445
> NV701-Netware Service and Support -- $875
> NV801-Netware Service and Support Update
> NV505-Netware 3.11 Administration
> NV515-Netware 3.11 Advanced Administration
> NV508-Netware 3.1x Administration -- $598
> NV518-Netware 3.1x Advanced Administration -- $348
> NV802-Netware 3.1x Install/Config Workshop -- $348
> NV526-Netware 3.11 to 4.0 Update -- $445
> NV520-Netware 4.x Administration -- $598
> NV525-Netware 4.x Advanced Administration -- $499
> NV804-Netware 4.x Install/Config Workshop -- $345
> NV605-Netware TCP/IP Transport -- $795 (Classroom)
> NV610-Netware NFS -- $795 (Classroom)
> NV718-Netware Connect -- $398
> NV715-Netware Dial In/Dial Out Connectivity -- $398
> NV720-Netware for SAA: Installation and Troubleshooting --$598
> NV680-UnixWare System Administration -- $445
> NV685-UnixWare Advanced System Administration -- $348
> NV678-UnixWare Installation and Configuration -- $348
> NV930-Developing Netware Loadable Modules
> NV945-Netware Programming: Protocol Support

Synoptics doesn't list the price in their "A Pocket Guide to
SynOptics Products", but they list the Product Number and a 1-800
number to call:  1-800-473-4911.  I noted the product number by those
listed in their guide.

> Synoptics-Understanding TCP/IP  - CSK -- Prod # 996-012
> Synoptics-DOS Lattisnet Manager 4.2 - CSK
> Synoptics-Ethernet Connectivity - CSK -- Prod # 996-003
> Synoptics-Token Ring Connectivity - CSK -- Prod # 996-015
> Synoptics-Understanding SNMP - CSK -- Prod # 996-011
> Synoptics-Understanding FDDI - CSK -- Prod # 996-056

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:20:17 -0400
From: "Dennis L. Scott" <dlscott@SCCOAST.NET>
Subject: Re: CNE Bootcamp

>Is their a CNE bootcamp that any company offers.  A week or 2 week course
>that takes you through the training and offers the tests the same or following
>day.  When you leave if you pass all the tests you are an authorized CNE.

I just returned from the CNE Bootcamp in Coasta Masa, CA.  It's 13
continuous days and is approximately $7000 plus transportation (includes
motel though).

My observations:

1. You had BETTER know the practical aspects of installing and maintaining
Netware BEFORE you go, not to mention DOS/Micro's.  You should be thoroughly
familiar with NDS and 4.1 before getting on the plane!!

2. The Drake testing center is on-site but closes at 5pm which means you'll
have to miss some class time in order to take the tests.  This hurts as some
of the tests are in excess of 1 hour long and you may very well have to take
some of them more than once (see below).  No tests are administered on
Saturday, Sundays, or holidays even though you must go to class on these
days (more delays!).

3. Be prepared to take more than 7 tests (maybe much more than 7).  The
tests are not meant to test your knowledge of the subject areas but rather
to get another $85 from you (in my opinion).  Thanks Novell!  Expect 100
percent trick questions.

4. Plan on at least 8 hours of study time each and every night in addition
to the class time.  Don't plan on much sleep, any television, or any
site-seeing.

5. Take plenty of headache medicine!

6. Expect about 11 people in the class.  Three people in my class actually
got their CNE while there and we were told that was a record -- it's more
usual that only one (or less) gets the CNE while there.

7. I've been in this business for over 15 years.  I spent 20 years in the US
Air Force and can honestly say that CNE Bootcamp was the hardest thing I've
ever done.  Thank GOD it's over!

8. The Big Red Self Test program doesn't help much and is not worth buying.
Novell's Self Assessment program seems to be an old Big Red and is totally
worthless.  (These are my options.)

9. Be sure to arrange to have your salesperson meet with you on the first
day of class to outline how you should take the tests (what order, etc).
This is important!

10. Be familiar with NSE Pro (DOS version) and Micro House.  You'll need
these to get through the Service and Support exam.

11. The motel (Country Side Inn), the training facility, and the people at
the Drake testing center were excellent!

12. Take only your workbooks even though your salesperson will tell you to
take all 88 pounds of course materials.  You'll only need the workbooks.
The airline charges $45 for suitcases over 75 pounds (I know).

Contact your Ingram Micro sales rep for more info.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 23:03:35 -0400
From: Joe Short <jshort@FUENTEZ.COM>
Subject: CNE Bootcamp

>>Is their a CNE bootcamp that any company offers.  A week or 2 week course
>>that takes you through the training and offers the tests the same or following
>>day.  When you leave if you pass all the tests you are an authorized CNE.
>
>I just returned from the CNE Bootcamp in Coasta Masa, CA.  It's 13
>continuous days and is approximately $7000 plus transportation (includes
>motel though).

Please note that there are many professional training organizations that
offer an intensive 2-week CNE course.  I live in the northern Virgina area,
and there must be 100's!  Are there any in your area?  Some local colleges
also offer a CNA/CNE curriculum.

My CNE course will cost approx. $4500, and is within a 30 minute drive.
1-800-RED-EXAM makes scheduling a test easy, but at times time-consuming
("Your call is important to us; please stay on the line and our next...").

Call as many training vendors as you can that offer the course.  Ask about
instructor certification/actual experience and for a class syllabus.
Remember that the first-line will be a salesman who is understandably trying
to gain business for his company, so feel free to research your investment.

Joe Short
Fuentez Systems Concepts, Inc.
11781 Lee Jackson Highway
Suite 700
Fairfax,  VA  22033
(703)273-1447
(703)273-2972

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 13:55:09 -0400
From: Loren Carter <loren.carter@arch2.nara.gov>
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Help with CNE -Reply

If the sole purpose of this endeavor is the right to attach the CNE
moniker to the end of his name, send him to class at an approved Novell
Authorized Education Center (NAEC). Just realize that the CNE program is
an increbidle marketing success for Novell. To become a CNE I had to take
and pass seven tests (at the then cost of $70 per exam). In order to keep
my CNEhood, I will have to take a couple more, and they ain't $70 [any
more].

The reason I recommend that you send him to a Novell blessed provider is
that in order to pass the Novell tests, there are Novell ways to think,
Novell ways to do things, and Novell propaganda to be remembered. When it
is time to pass the tests in order to become a CNE, you must answer the
questions the way Novell would answer them. There may be differing routes
to get to the same destination, but during the test, there is only the
Novell way. During the classes, your person will get the Novell party
line, the Novell books, and the instructor (where I went) gave us pointers
about questions we could expect.

He would say "This is important" and you could hear the tops snapping off
the highlighter pens all over the room. Or he would say, "A previous
student told me that he was asked this particular question". In some
cases, it helped to know some of the questions prior to the test.

I personally went through the CNE program in 10 days, all classes, all
tests. It was tough, a lot to remember, but I had a pretty good PC and
networking background, so I made it through. I will say that my instructor
was a CNI, incredibly network smart, and I still call him periodically for
questions and assistance.

------------------------------

Have you tried the CNE test from Cyber-Pass? They give you about 250
questions for every exam. You can contact them at

	http://www.cyber-pass.com/

You will have to download the file monster.exe to have samples for all
Novell exams. For every question they give descriptive answer and the page
number from your course materials. Price is good too: 20$ for each exam,
but program is copy protected, you have to register while talking to a
sales rep from Cyber-Pass.

Jack Miller

------------------------------

Subject: TestOut! for Novell's CNE Certification

United Education Centers (UEC) have a selfstudy course with books, videos
and software towards Netware CNE certification. Their homepage is

	http://www.uec.com/uec/

Henno Goetz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 21:07:14 -6
From: "Mike Avery" <mavery@aus.sig.net>
Subject: Re: Help with CNE

>While I was working on my CNE, I found some of the Novell Classes to be
>very helpful, namely the Adv Admin and Service and Support.  As for the
>Networking Technologies I would just buy the kit from Novell.

Adv Admin and Service and Support are, to my mind, the key courses
for most people in the field.  I recommended them to co-workers.  The
ones that took those courses were soon hailed as miracle workers.

As to Networking Technologies...someone at a training center (a student)
referred to it as "a 3 day nose-picker of a course".  Evidently, that's
how he stayed awake.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:19:39 GMT
From: "B. Michael Herrick" <vfxtech@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: CNE test preparation

Getting ready for CNE exams becomes more challenging all the time.  A
new, fully functional testing application (w/ over 500 questions) to
help you meet that challenge is now available for download from dozens
of FTP sites or the WWW.

This software does not use easy multiple choice questions like the
other "testing" programs. Instead, it challenges you using a short
answer format.  After comprehensively testing your knowledge, extensive
feedback will outline your strengths and weaknesses.

The file is available at SimTel and all mirrors:

	ftp://ftp.coast.net/SimTel/win3/network/cneendvr.zip

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:49:20 +1000
From: "Keith Elshout (MIS)" <KRE@MIS.MEDRMH.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

>Where can I find some good exercices to be ready for the CNE exam?

By far the best Sample Exam program is one supplied by Novell
called NOVELL EDUCATION CERTIFICATION SAMPLER ver.5 .  These
questions are very like the ones you will see in the exams.  The
phone number supplied with the product is 1-404-641-9878.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 10:40:33 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: CNE in Hong Kong

>I  think it the time that Hong Kong joining to CNE. As a student of IT; I
>found there is so little information on this aspect. Is it the time the
>Novell  take her eyes on Hong Kong which is a fast developing in the
>networking. The demand on CNE is very large but the CNE exam provider is
>so little information providing to the public.
>
>To talk about on world view, I suggest Novell should take her first step to
>build at least a new group on this aspect to let the CNE, CNI, ECNE ...
>to share the experiences on how to get  the CNE.
>
>I'm sorry if I placed this message on a wrong News Group! But I only
>found CNE occur in this News Group.
--------------
	You certainly have the right ideas here (aside from the fact this
isn't a NEWS group).
	The CN* business is just that: a for-profit business, overseen
loosely by Novell (Educational Division) but run by many companies. If
someone were to setup an information service on the Internet that would
be the best place to look for advice, buy and sell study guides, gripe
about standards, and so forth.
	Anyone can create a NEWS group. Surprize! The formally organized
groups go through NEWS admin procedures, the ad hoc groups just spring
up like weeds every 30 seconds. ALT.* is just such a free-for-all. Here
are some examples.

	Established formal NetWare NEWS groups:
	   comp.os.netware.announce
	   comp.os.netware.connectivity
	   comp.os.netware.misc
	   comp.os.netware.security

	Established formal NEWS admin NEWS groups:

	   news.admin.hierarchies
	   news.admin.misc
	   news.admin.net-abuse.announce
	   news.admin.net-abuse.misc
	   news.admin.policy
	   news.admin.technical
	   news.announce.conferences
	   news.announce.newgroups
	   news.announce.newusers
	   news.answers
	   news.groups
	   news.groups.questions
	   news.groups.reviews
	   news.lists
	   news.misc
	   news.newusers.questions
	   news.software.anu-news
	   news.software.b
		etc

	Dedicated listservers and WWW sites are another way of providing
points of contact information. They have freedom to carry commercial
material while NEWS does not.
	To the CN* candidates: as why your training and testing company does
not provide more information.
	 Please do note first that Novell Education already provides some
guidance on the matter: See NETWIRE\NOVEDUC on ftp.novell.com and official
mirror sites, and read about companies and programs and more.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 04:01:55 GMT
From: "Stephen M. Dunn" <bokonon!stephen@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>
Subject: Re: On Line CNE training

$I have seen 2 adverts. for CNE training from people on this list
$who are NOT CNI people,  This not only degrades the already
$suspicious quality of cne's but sucks money out of the pockets of (Pardon
$the phrase) Numb people who dont know any better!

   Who says that the only people who are capable of teaching other
people what they need to know to become CNEs are CNIs?

   Having a CNE designation doesn't necessarily mean you're an
expert networking installer and troubleshooter, and not having
one doesn't mean you're not.  Ditto for CNIs and training.

   It's entirely possible to get a CNE designation without ever
once taking a course.  It's entirely possible to become a good,
competent CNE that way, too.  Not to be immodest, but I took
exactly two CNE courses (one of them only because the company
got it for free), and I think I generally know my stuff fairly
well.  A former employee of our company got her CNE at the same
time I did, and she also didn't take many of the courses.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 20:56:29 GMT
From: Chuck Helms <chelms@OCC-UKY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject: CNE test Changed?

Unconfirmed rumor from a local CNE who went to take his 4.1 test on
10/31 is that the TEST IS DIFFERENT.  He had used WAVE materials to
study and was consistently scoring in the 90's.  Result of exam was 40
something.

Anybody out there who can confirm this?

chelms@occ-uky.campus.mci.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 14:40:55 GMT
From: Shane Hultquist <sshultqu@CYBERSPC.MB.CA>
Subject: CNE Course

I am now studying for the CNE Certification Exam.  I hope to be
writing it by the end of March 1996.  I just purchased a book entitled
the "CNE Short Course - The fastest way to become a CNE".  This book
is put out by New Riders Publishing and includes an interactive
CD-Rom.  I have so far found this book to be very good.  Only one
drawback.  It does not cover any Novell Netware 4.1 stuff.  Oh well,
we can't have all of it all of the time can we....

Shane Hultquist
Certified Novell Administrator
http://www.cyberspc.mb.ca/~sshultqu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 20:06:01 EST
From: Rob Walters <ROB@GOOFY.INTERFACE.COM>
Subject: Re: CNE test Changed?

>Unconfirmed rumor from a local CNE who went to take his 4.1 test on
>10/31 is that the TEST IS DIFFERENT.  He had used WAVE materials to
>study and was consistently scoring in the 90's.  Result of exam was 40
>something.

The format has changed with the new Novell testing program.  They
have made it a tad bit different.  I think the Wave program may also
have something to do with it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 00:03:00 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: CNE home study

David

If you already have 4 years of network systems admin work under your belt,
the red tests shouldn't be too challenging. I have never taken a class OR
bought study materials and have been an ECNE (soon to be Master) for 1 1/2
years. My first self study class is 205, the Fundementals of Internet
Design and Management that all ECNEs need to take for the upgrade to Master
status. The material seems pretty simple and I don't anticipate any
problems passing this test.

I'd snap up the 4.1 study guide, and see about getting enough hardware
together to set up a server and single client at home. Read all the
material, all the manuals, and you should pass. Good luck!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 16:55:49 GMT
From: koppanyi@USER.ROSE.COM (Louis Koppanyi)
Subject: Unfaur CNE test treatment

I am a little bit pissed off. I had the CNE Networking Technologies
test yesterday. They supposed to give me between 15-25 questions. They
cut me off after the 15th one. The passing score was 527 points and I
had 524 points. So I failed with 3 points. I called the NOVELL and
complained about this unethical treatment. They said, they will call
back. I don't think that they will change the result.
Does anyone know why the computer not allows you to have one more
question?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:15:16 -0500
From: Edmund Vocke <evocke@PIONEER.USPTO.GOV>
Subject: Re: Unfair CNE test treatment

>>I am a little bit pissed off. I had the CNE Networking Technologies
>>test yesterday. They supposed to give me between 15-25 questions. They
>>cut me off after the 15th one. The passing score was 527 points and I
>>had 524 points. So I failed with 3 points. I called the NOVELL and
>>complained about this unethical treatment. They said, they will call
>>back. I don't think that they will change the result.
>>Does anyone know why the computer not allows you to have one more
>>question?
>
>I did this test about a month ago, and I knew before I wrote it that
>there was only 15 questions and it was a form test.  The test may have
>changed since then, but the type of test you were expecting was an
>adaptive test. Not to say anything about you , but I would take it upon
>myself when registering for a test what kind of test it is, how many
>questions, the pass mark, and so on.  Study harder and try again.
>
>Guy Fillatre, CNA

I've taken several of the new test and have found that if you are weak in
one area the test will keep throwing you questions on that subject.  The
test can have between 15 and 25 questions but if you have missed the
percentage in the first 15 then the test stops.  I don't think that these
new test do any better job of assessing knowledge than the old ones.  As
far as study harder, it should be buy the Big Red or Clark study guide
and plan on taking at least on test twice.  That extra $85 helps make ends
meet at Novell.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 06:23:29 EST
From: Michael Weston <MWeston@ALIS-EU.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: [2] Unfair CNE test treatment...

Edmund,

Sorry, can't agree with you. If you're well prepared for the tests
they are quite straightforward. The adaptive tests are designed to
probe for weak points. If you're weak in a particular area you are
going to fail. End of story.

I'm no brainbox, but I passed all the exams no problem. I was
fortunate to have the equipment to build a 3.12 server and workstation
when I started studying. Go over and over the course books and
practise on a server/workstation if you have one available. Apart from
one or two tricky questions (for example, the recently discussed
question on inherited rights which caught out one or two people on the
list!), thorough preparation will result in a pass.

Anyway, it's mostly academic. The real understanding begins once you
venture out into the real world.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:31:07 EST
From: "Jerome P. Giles" <JG44@INFOCTR.CHRYSLER.COM>
Subject: Re: CNE Certification

Your best bet is to take the first two or three courses to get a feel for
Netware.  Then try to get a couple months hands on experience working on
someones network. You can then pass the remaining 4 or 5 exams using the
self study methods because you will have a solid base on which to build
upon. Some good self study books by New Rider publishing are out at only
$50-$90 bucks a pop. They cover most exams such as 3-4update,NFS,TCP/IP
and more.  Also the three track is the way you want to go since netware
4 training is included in the 3-4 update course which is part of the three
track requirements. No one really uses 4.1 in the real world even though
Novell is shoving it down every ones throat. I am a system engineer at a
major corp and of 326 servers only one is 4.1 the rest are 3.12 and its
just not worth the money to upgrade thousands of users.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 12:30:21 -0500
From: DMG01@aol.com
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Fundamentals of Internetwork design

Yes!  The test was 75 questions 90min.  It was a challanging test to take.
The majority of the questions on the versoion I had were about routers,
bridges, gateways, and switching methods.  It would ask some questions like:
Which of the following require a Permanent Virtual Circuit?  Frame Relay,
SONET, X.25, etc.  The majority of the quesitons on my test were about
chapters 3,4,&5.  Of course, they always throw in a few questions from all
the chapters and also a few that you may question about the correct answers.

Overall, know your stuff about bridges, routers, and gateways.  Of course
there are many versions of the test, so the one you take could be different.

I just took the test two days ago and it took me about an hour to take it.

You should find the test to be a challenge and very informative.  Maybe a
test like this should be a part of the normal CNE track along with printing
with Netware?  Good Luck.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:29:14 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: Fundamentals of Internetwork design

>Has Anyone taken the exam on this course to maintain Master CNE status?

I've got mine on temporary hold while I study NT tests, but a co worker has
taken this. The warning was to understand the OSI model COMPLETELY, and to
watch the minute details. I STILL think it's not going to be too hard, but
I'm not going to underestimate the test.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:26:57 EST
From: Christopher Diebold <cdiebold@ENGLEWOOD.LIB.CO.US>
Subject: Re: CNI path

>I have an offer of recruit as CNI.  I do not have CNE.  I am told that
>the CNI is bigger than CNE.
>
>Any differences?  A CNE is certified by 7 modules.  Is a CNI the same?

Yes CNI is different.  (Novell Education can give you a more detailed
explanation, but here goes..) CNI's are required to apply with Novell
Education along with an application fee, take the specific course that
they are looking to teach from a NAEC, pass the CNI version of the
exam relating to the course (different test number than CNE), and pass
the instructor performance evaluation.  Novell Education's phone #'s
(800) 233-3382 or the FaxBack service (801) 429-5363, Document #1452.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:44:46 +1000
From: Richard Phillips <Richard_Phillips@MCINTOSH.COM.AU>
Subject: CNI path

The tests you do to become a CNI are exactly the same as the ones to
become a CNE. The only difference is that you need to get a higher
score to become a CNI. Note that you have to specify that you want to
sit the test at the CNI level _before_ you do each test.

For more detailed info contact your local Netware training centre.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:31:41 GMT
From: Steve Kurz <skurz@INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: Where are the CNA questions

>I didn't see this listed as a subject in the FAQ.  I've got all the CNE
>information.  I can't find a specific list of CNA questions; the ones
>for the test.  Anyone know where to locate a list?

The CNA test is the same as the CNE test for Novell Class 508, the Systems
Administrator. There are no separate questions

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:08:44 -0500
From: Richard Strong <compudoc@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: novelli: Re: Certified Network Professional

>>>>Does anyone have any thoughts on the CNP program.  I recently received =
>>>>the material in my newsletter from the NPA.
>>
>>Honestly, never heard of it.  Without sounding naive, who's the NPA?
>
>>I've been thinking of going for the Microsoft Engineer Certification as =
>>opposed to going to master CNE, but what I'd really like to hear is has =
>>anyone heard of the CNP program?  Does anyone have it?  Is it as hard to =

To answer youre question. I am a member of the NPA ( network Professional
Association ) It is not new but to name has been changed. It used to be
the CNEPA. Only CNE's were allowed to join. Now some desperate netword
certifications are being reconized and allowed to join. It is a good
organization of Network professionals. We all need a group like this. As
far as the new certification offered by the group, make up your own mind
based on if you think you will be able to meet initial and continuing
requirments. It is very demanding. Of course this will give the holder
respect.

	   THE NPA IS FOR REAL, AN ASSET TO THE NETWORK PROFESSIONAL.

   I would encourage all of you to join. I have and continue to gain as a
result of being a member, I have recieved discounts on hardware and
software, free software and above all information ( also major salery
increases this yeare as a direct result of the NPA).  I don't have the
info in front of me now, but anyone interested in learning more please
reply to this message and choose to send to the sender and not to post.
I will connect you to all the facts and the chapter in your ares.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:05:25 GMT
From: aolsz <aolsz@RITZ.MORDOR.COM>
Subject: CNE Tutorial (Web)

A good CNE tutorial is a free download at
http://www.mordor.com/aolsz

under COMPUTERCRAFT! in PROGRAMS FOR DOWNLOAD.X

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:58:05 -6
From: "Mike Avery" <mavery@bga.com>
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: CNE test materials

>I've been invited to teach a "CNE certification cram" class at a
>local community college as part of their continuing education
>program

You go on to ask for recommendations for curriculum materials...
however, I'd rather raise a different question.

I do not feel that a CNE "Cram course" does a service to anyone other
than the instructor and the institution that gives the class. It
creates more paper CNE's that are not really all that qualified in
the real world.  It continues the erosion of the CNE title.

As a former teacher, I have a great deal of antipathy for the concept
of "teaching to the test".  The test is supposed to show if certain
concepts were mastered.  When the teaching is geared to the test, the
test no longer does it's job.  The student is short changed in real
terms.

Well... I had a thought... the course might perform a service to one
other group of people.  The poor bozos who hire or contract these
CNE's - they might finally realize that they need to look past a
single credential in selecting contractors or employees.

P.S. - I normally view the use of titles with similar antipathy,
unless I think that they are relevant to the discussion at hand.
In this case, it is relevant.  Either I know the material or I don't.
The title has no real bearing on that question.  Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:02:35 CDT
From: "Dan Creagan" <DCREAGAN@scholars.bellevue.edu>
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: CNE test materials

>I've been invited to teach a "CNE certification cram" class at a local
>community college as part of their continuing education program.

2 two day sessions?  Very aggressive schedule.  We're doing something
similar -- only over a three semester period (1 year). The book we
reluctantly chose, after reviewing the field, is  "The CNE-4 Study
Guide" by Sybex.

The good part: it's sections match the Novell test sections - almost;
it comes with a sample of the Big Red Tests which you can also get from
the Novell Web Sites; it includes an elective (TCP/IP) which is very
popular;  and it is relatively clear in its explanations.

The bad part: It has errors.  I've found a half dozen or so.  As a
backup to this book, we also recommend (but don't require) our students
get "CNE Study Guide For NetWare 4.1" by Clarke (Novell Press).  It has
a crippled copy of DS Standard in it which is very handy to play with
if you don't have access to a 4.1 server.  It is probably a much better
book overall for reference... it's just that it doesn't follow the order
of the tests very clearly.  It comes with a copy of the Clarke tests
(short version).  It doesn't have practice tests for Install and Config
or for an elective.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 03:06:16 GMT
From: Steve Kurz <skurz@NORFOLK.INFI.NET>
Subject: Re: Job advice & opinion on CNE certification please

>I would appreciate your opinion on the usefulness of a CNE. I am
>currently unemployed and have been given the option by our local
>employment office to train for a CNE, an MCSE (Microsoft cert sys
>engineer), or to receive intensive AUTOCAD training.
>
>I would love to know your opinion, particularly with regard to the job
>market, on
>
>1: Whether a CNE by itself is enough to land you employment.
>2: Whether a CNE is more useful than an MCSE.
>3. Is a CNE more useful than the AUTOCAD training

I think that this is a great question. I am a Certified Novell Instructor and
get asked all of the time from almost every class that I teach. There is a
stock answer and a real answer.

1. The stock answer is "Just look in the newspapers. There are dozens of want
   ads looking for CNEs. That should say something."

The real answer is "Just look in the newspapers. There are dozens of want ads
looking for CNEs. But, the all want CNEs with one to two years experience"

Will a CNE certification get you a job? Maybe an interview, not necessarily
a job. You need the hands-on, in the trenches, all-nighter, degree from the
School of Hard Knocks, type of experience to get you a job with staying
power.


2. To compare the MCSE against a CNE is kinda like comparing apples and green
   apples. They both play to a manufacturer, but IMHO [put flame suit on here]
   the MCSE requires a more in-depth knowledge of a series of products, rather
   than a product with a series of additions. The combination of the two can
   be a very powerful tool.

3. Is a CNE more useful than the AUTOCAD training? This is akin to asking if a
   V8 is better than an automatic. The only right answer is "It depends". The
   focus of your training should be end result, not the means to get there. If
   you want to go to an engineering firm and be an Autocad operator, there is
   something to be said about training. However, if you want to go to an
   engineering firm and be the LAN administrator, a working knowledge of
   Autocad would probably suffice, but an in-depth knowledge of the LAN is
   required. Choose your weapon accordingly.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:03:22 -0600
From: "Jim Erickson, CNE" <jrericks@CMONSTER.COUNTY.ANOKA.MN.US>
Subject: Request a Bit of Help w/CNE Prep -Reply

>I am trying to get a 3.1x CNE on my own, using self-study.  I am looking
>ahead and it appears the Service and Support test is going to require
>familiarity with NSEPro and MHTL, both of which are on CD and available
>'by subscription'.
>
>Since each of these is periodically updated, and therefore replaced by a
>newer CD, I was wondering if anybody might sell me one of the older
>CDs for either or both to use for practice and study?
>
>I know the 801 study material package now includes one of each, but that
>package costs almost $1,000! Too much for my unemployed budget right now.

Yep, the Service and Support test does require some knowledge of NSEPro
and MHTL, and also Netwire on Compuserve.  In all, however, I had one
very simply question about each on my test (of course all the tests are
different). I don't have any copies I can sell you (the MHTL license
actually explicitly forbids this if I'm not mistaken) but I would like
to offer some advice.

First off, you may be able to get a free demo of MHTL from the company.
It is not, of course, the full version but it lets you learn how to get
around and search for info.  This is how I studied for the MHTL topic.

With the NSEPro, as with MHTL, you basically need to learn how to get
around and search for information.  You may be able to find an older copy
of NSEPro somewhere which would suffice.  It would allow you to learn the
search engine, which seems to be the most important thing.  If you have
any friends that are already CNEs, they should have a copy laying around
that you could use for a couple of days.  If not, the CD that comes with
the CNE Study Guide (Novell Press) has a version on it that you could use
to study.  The only bad thing I found about this (aside from the $90 price
of the book) is that the version on the CD is a Windows version and the
one that was on my test was the DOS version.  This kind of startled me
when I took the test but the search engine is the same so it wasn't a big
deal.

Even though you didn't ask about Compuserve, if you don't already have an
account, you could find one of the '10 hours free' kits somewhere.  That
would be plenty of time to figure out how things are organized.

BTW, if you don't already have it, the CNE Study Guide that I mentioned
above is a great book for self study.  If you do pick one up, make sure
it is the latest version and not the one from the old CNE program.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:00:01 -0500
From: KRD111@aol.com (Keith Deshaies)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

I truly sympathize with you, but you probably won't like what I'm about to
say right now.

I failed my first two tests this past July (one was the DOS/Micro fiasco--I
was mortified-- and the other was the 4.1 Admin. test), and was completely
demoralized. Obviously I know this stuff; it's my damn job! My first
reaction, too, was to lodge a complaint with Novell, which probably would
have gotten a shrug, at best. After all, according to all the hardened CNEs
and E(M)CNEs subscribing to this list, Novell was/is trying to reduce the
number of "paper CNEs" flooding the market and to keep the pedigree pure.

What better way to do this than to make the tests harder and more expensive?

I decided to cool off and wait two weeks before I took the first test again.
When I tested again, my score was nearly perfect. Did my knowledge of DOS and
PC architecture vastly improve in two weeks? No. But I now had a taste of
what Novell expected from me. I didn't fail the first test because I didn't
understand DOS or PCs, I failed the first test because I wasn't sure how
Novell wanted me to see and understand DOS and PCs.

To put it bluntly, you have to buy into their view of the industry, no matter
how limited in scope it is, as presented in their course materials. When you
study, you have to weed through horribly edited text to extract real meaning
and apply it to your world. So, in addition to learning new material,
unfortunately you have the added adventure of not only understanding it
thoroughly, but understanding the material exactly the way they want you to.
This, for me, was a major philosophical shift, but a necessary one.

Forget about how they arrive at test scores. That's more convoluted than some
of their explanations of the OSI Reference model. Just saturate yourself with
the course books and don't get discouraged. Just buy into it for now.
Completely. Your soul will be returned to you after you're certified.

I get to put up or shut up about all this next Friday as a plunge into test
#5 of 7 (Net Tech). This whole process is taking longer than I thought, but I
believe it will be worth it. I don't usually test well, but the combination
of their bizarre combinations of phrases on tests and the $85 fee is, I fear,
accidentally getting the results Novell wanted: It's safer just to understand
the stuff rather than worrying about tests and scores. And ya gotta do it
their way. You can hold your head up after it's over though, because nobody
in this list will call you a "paper" CNE. It's tougher now. And comprehension
and retention are demanded.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:49:05 -0500
From: WAYNENOEL@aol.com
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

I have read alot of the responses you have gotten and it makes me laugh.

First off, which books are you trying to study from?  If they are any other
then Novell's study guides, specifically the Novell White Books,  Then that
is part of the problem.  Second, highlight what you feel is critical
information in the books when you are studying and make up some flash cards
with answers on one side and possible questions on the other. Sounds silly
but it is a great study tool and it works.  Third, keep in mind on thing
which is very important.  There is the Right way, wrong way and the Novell
way of doing things.  When taking tests there is only one way, THE NOVELL
WAY.  Do not become discouraged, it's alot of work, but it's worth it in
the long run.  One thing that I found very important is that you must be
very committed to becoming a CNE if you want to get through the program.
It takes a personal committment of constant study and self discipline to
make it through the program.

If you have any any specific questions that I may be able to answer for
you, writh me personaly and I will responde.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:06:52 -0500
From: PowrTekSys@aol.com (Kevin C. McIntosh)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

These adaptive tests are getting more complex, all the time.  I know, I've
been taking them for 7 years.  They want to decrease the number of "Paper
CNEs" and make it easier for employers to identify an applicant's skill set.
I just finished my CNE4, under the "new" certification program.  I'm
beginning the trek towards an MSCE as well.  Yeah, I must be a masochist.

I've heard from many knowledgeable sources, including CNIs, that your problem
is not unique for people who have been "in the trenches".  They say that most
of the time it's because they over-think the question.  They get caught up in
"Well, if this is how the rest of it's set up , then, "B" is correct, but if
it's this way, then, "C" is right.  Don't do this!!!

By the way, I have protested a "poorly-worded" question.  When I called Drake
(Prometric or whoever they are this week), they had already received numerous
complaints, on the same question, and gave me credit for my answer.  They
turned down my other 2 objections, but, what the hell, maybe I helped someone
else.  I studied for another 2 weeks and passed the new Netware/IP test.

Keeping your skill set up-to-date is the most important thing you can do to
maintain or expand your carreer.  Don't give up!  Lend a deaf ear to the
people who claim you don't need more knowledge or proof of your skills.  If
someone is negative about your goals, stop discussing it with them.  Surround
yourself with positive influences.

Anyone who has ever gotten ahead knows the importance of setting long-term
goals and disecting them into short-term ones.  The person who pushed me,
literally, to get my CNE isn't certified in anything.  Remember: If it was
easy everyone would be doing it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:16:10 -0800
From: rgrein@halcyon.com (Randy Grein)
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

Exactly how are you studying for the tests? While I am a MSCE, this is
still an important issue for me; I'll be taking tests til I retire. The way
I studied was to read the manuals (after working for a reseller for over a
year) and use the practice tests available from Novell. I'd flag every
question I didn't understand THOROUGHLY, and go back and re-read the
material, then retake the practice test a few hours later. I used
essentially the same method to complete my ECNE to Master CNE update test,
and aced it.

Lest it appear I'm unsympathetic I've had similar problems passing the
Microsoft tests. MS networking is nothing like Novell, and the tests are
WORSE!. Less practice with NT didn't help, either. Still, my employer is
paying the bill, and explicitly told me to fail a few, but get it over
with. I'm halfway through now, so I suppose it's worth it. It'll be worth
it for you, too. Novell certification is still the most respected, well
known cert available, and while the testing is far from perfect, (Don't get
me started on testing methodologies!) all you really need to pass is a good
understanding of the material, and full confidence in your abilities. The
other advice I've heard here is ecellent; follow it and you'll make it.

BTW, are there any objections to my compiling this thread and referencing
it in my class and elsewhere?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 01:43:01 -0500
From: ASonderby@aol.com
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

>Second, highlight what you feel is critical information in the books
>when you are studying and make up some flash cards with answers on one
>side and possible questions on the other. Sounds silly but it is a great
>study tool and it works.

I used this study method before taking the 3.x Admin, and I passed first
time.

Writing the information down is 1/2 the job, and you learn from it too.  The
second half is the method by which you use the cards.  Instead of mulling
through them endlessly, as you get right answers put these in a stack on the
side.  Wrong answers don't go to the back of the pile.  Put them 5-10 cards
deep so they come up sooner.  They eventually end up in the "correct" pile.

My 3.12 admin flash-cards are about 2" deep...  :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 06:01:54 -6
From: "Mike Avery" <mavery@bga.com>
To: netw4-l@bgu.edu
Subject: Re: very frustrated CNE candidate. HELP!

I keep hearing some negative comments about the CNE program.  All in
all, I feel there are areas where it could be improved.  But, they
have not been addressed in this discussion.

>... To put it bluntly, you have to buy into
>their view of the industry, no matter how limited in scope it is, as
>presented in their course materials. ...

In this case, Novell is the classic "Triple threat player".  He hits,
he catches, and if he doesn't like the way the game is going, he
takes his bat, ball, and glove home.

Novell is certifying that people are familiar with Novell software,
NOT that they are general networking experts.  Novell wants to help
you sell and support Novell based networks.

Do you also complain when you can't get Crepes Suzette prepared at
your table at McDonalds?  Or do you accept that McDonald's serves
burgers, and that you pick them up at the counter?

Novell, in it's courses, are teaching people familiarity with their
products.

If your mechanic goes to all the General Motors "Mr. Goodwrench"
courses, that does not qualify him to work on Fords.  That's not
what General Motors had in mind when they started that certification
program.

Some people have said that the CNE program is a money maker for
Novell.  It is, but they are not making much money off us.  I would be
surprised if their educational programs did much more than break
even.  It is very costly to prepare and distribute good quality
educational materials, and the materials are (overall) quite good.

To be sure, the education centers are making money, but remember,
they have to pay for the equipment you use, plus their rent and the
CNI (who wants a return on his investment too).

Where Novell makes the money is ...... the CNE's are a selling point
to the people who buy and install NetWare based LAN's.  The sales
representative can say, "We at ACME will stand behind you.  If for
any reason we are unable to support you, or you decide you need
someone else to support you, there are over 15 billion CNE's in this
town alone who can support you."  Most businesses do not want to get
a product that could leave them orphaned.

>When you study, you have to weed through horribly edited text to
>extract real meaning and apply it to your world.

Oh, grow up.  There are time when Novell uses words in "novell" ways,
but over all the materials are good.  Some people don't want to spend
the time and effort to read them.  The basic problem is that
networking is not easy, and there is no way to make the underlying
principles easy.

Overall, the materials are good, and they are well suited to their
intended audiences.  Pick up a shop manual for your favorite car.  It
was written with an assumption that the reader understood cars in
general, as well as good shop practices.  So it can say, "hone the
cylinder with 000 grit paper until smooth" and assume that you will
know what that means.  If you don't, perhaps you shouldn't be
replacing the pistons in your car.  Similarly, the red books assume
that you understand networking.

>Forget about how they arrive at test scores.

That's Drake in any case, not Novell. And that's pretty standard
testing methodology.  At first the tests consist of many questions.
Over a period of time, they realize that some questions are better
indicators of a students knowledge than others.  For example, of all
students who earned 95% or better, 99% answered a question correctly,
but only 20% of students who earned less than 95%.  That question is
said to be an excellent discriminator.

Drake does not understand the contents of the question.  What they
understand is what was stated above.  Of the students who earned 95%
or better on the test, 99% got this question correct.  And only 20%
of those getting less than 95% of the test correct.

So, they feel that they can ask that one question and get a quick
reading for how much the test taker knows.  Scary, huh?  But,
statistically valid.

All the questions in the larger test are rated based on the area of
knowedge covered and their statistical signifigance.  Some are not
very signifigant - anyone who remembered to bring a photo ID to the
test center gets them right, so there's no point in asking them.

When the first question in an area does not get a correct response,
it is assumed that you are not in the 95th percentile.  So another
question is asked that delves further into your knowledge.  And that
can determine where you would test out, if you had answered all 150
questions (or whatever the count was).

>Just buy into it for now. Completely. Your soul will be returned to
>you after you're certified.

If you feel you sold you soul to get certified, perhaps you need to
consider other lines of work.  Novell needs to make sure that you
understand the Novell way of doing things.  They make no bones about
it.  It's their bat, ball, and glove.  If you don't like the game,
play another.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 16:23:41 GMT
From: Eli Vallejo, TransWorld Net Education <tne@XMISSION.COM>
Subject: CNE-4 Complete Pack ($695.0) Free CNI

The Novell CNE Complete Pack ($695.0) With Free CNI Support comes with
the seven courses required to pass Novell's New CNE-4 exams.  Novell's
CNE-3 is also available.  This pack conforms to Novell's New CNE program
announced April 11, 1995.  Come visit our site and see all that comes
with the complete packs.

	http://www.xmission.com/~tne/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:51:49 -0600
From: Joe Doupnik <JRD@CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Re: I want to become a CNE

>Appling to a Novell course takes you about 40 hours, doing the same thing
>by yourself will cost you at least 80 hours.
----------
	After my blast at Klaus, who was really trying to be helpful thanks
Klaus, I think it's time for yet another short story so folks realize where
I'm coming from on the matter.
	"My first real job," where I was first totally on my own resources
in front of everyone and failure was unthinkable, was many years ago. For
a number of years I worked in the field with others as their helper and
often on my own in smaller ways. Eventually I needed to have certain pieces
of very official paper to progress. So I got out manuals of the legal rules
and samples of the kinds of questions I would face on the formal government
examinations; these were thick objects. I bored in and learned the "rules"
parts, where one must know the regs on certain tolerances and procedures, and
brushed up on theory and practice where knowing "how it works" is required.
This took about a year, during which time I continued to work as an apprentice.
	I took the second level exam and passed it. Yeah! A short time later
I took the top level exam, and flunked by a small margin. Groan. I went back
after the short mandatory waiting period and passed it. Yeah**2. Memorization
counted only on the regulations part, helped slightly on the theory, and
not at all on the practical part. The questions had multiple choice answers,
some devious to trip up memorizers. It was not "adaptive;" every candidate in
the country got the same questions that year. I hate adaptive exams as
intrinsically mean and grossly unfair.
	With exams accomplished I got that real job. I was on my own, felt
confident in coping, did in fact cope and enjoy every challenge. The top
exam was for a First Class Commercial Radio Telephone License, via the FCC
(US comms agency), as high as one could go but I skipped the radar endorsment
(later I had to became an expert on large radars, so Fate gets even with us).
I had turned 18 and just finished High School. The job was Chief Engineer of
a major market radio station, but not the biggest station around. The station
is still there today so I didn't mess up irretrievably.
	The points are I had lots, years, of practical experience dealing with
non-rule material being tested. I had to bone up on (memorize) esoteric rules
that govern commercial broadcast, and then to apply those rules and experience
in daily work. I had no classes to take on the material, there weren't any,
but I had my colleagues plus those thick manuals plus my experience to help
when the going got tough. It couldn't be done in days.
	[Did I mention that I walked four miles, no 10 miles, to school every
day, rain or snow? Oh, your dad used that line too? Must have been the same
school, cough cough.]
-------
	The apprentice system paid off hansomely then, and today. It's missing
in these one week CNE certificate mills.
-------
	The combination of study, memorizing what could only be described as
beyond reasoning, and trying things myself and with others built the base of
knowledge needed to practice successfully.
	You can see why folks who do these things for real keep insisting upon
practical experience as a prerequisite for a successful career. The pieces of
paper are nice, often necessary (I've had to get a bunch more over time, sigh),
but they aren't the core of the matter. Please don't believe your own
propaganda that passing an exam via a cram course means you really know
something.
	Joe D.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:51:59 -0600
From: SAM <RUTLEDGE@LUB002.LAMAR.EDU>
Subject: Re: I want to become a CNE

I just took the Novell Administrator class and was given these
phone numbers.

1 (800) red-exam to find out about taking tests
1 (800) net-ware  Novell guide to steps to be CNE

------------------------------

>Does anyone know of any available books or other study materials for the
>3.1x to 4.1 Update Exam that is required by 30 June 96 for CNE's that took
>the CNE-3 path.

A good booklet that will at least point you in the right direction
is Lantronic's "Ethernet Tutorial and Product Guide".  It is free
from Lantronic at 1-800-422-7055

Larry C. Hansford

--------------------------

Quick Path to 4.1 from Novell Press is pretty good.
NDS Troubleshooting from New Rider Press is very good also.

Hansang Bae

--------------------------

