Session Start: Sat Feb 14 00:52:58 1998
* Logging #quark to '#quark.log'
<ErrorInc> Current time is 9:50 Pacific Time.  Armin will be here at 10:00
-ErrorInc- Your message has been recorded, away for 1h36m4s.
<Odat> man I'd forgotten how slowmodems go
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<RadarAWAY> my clock says it's 9:58
<Odat> I wonder if he was a red dwarf fan
<Odat> so do mine
<RadarAWAY> atomic clock
<Odat> naa it's set to the bc transit time
<Odat> (somewhat like 5 minutes slow by standards around here)
Session Close: Sat Feb 14 00:56:36 1998

Session Start: Sat Feb 14 00:56:41 1998
* Logging #quark to '#quark.log'
<cynchako> Hi Armin :-)
<Odat> hola dude
<Yukon-11> 'lo Armin
<ManaQuake> Hey
<Armin> Hello !
*** ErrorInc sets mode: +o Armin
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* Odat bos before the all mighty great one :)
* Yukon-11 quietly takes his seat.
<Odat> bows too argh
* PsycoMage does the same
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* Serplord refuses to bow to any mortal and is forced to his knees by an unseen 
force
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<cynchako> LOL..
<Zarzoo> When does the new version come out?
<PlagueB> woohoo
<Odat> lol
<Armin> I don't know, maybe two-three weeks.
<RadarAWAY> "when it's done" :)
<Yukon-11> Cool.
<Zarzoo> sheesh....  I cant wait...  
<Armin> Now it's university "holidays" so I've a bit more free time.
<ErrorInc> Please dont make stupid noises
<Odat> hehe
<PlagueB> Care to let us in on any new features planned?
<Armin> Of course !
<Armin> I mean, of course not !
<ManaQuake> (Armin rules!)
<Serplord> this is -the- new version right?  completely redone?
<Armin> Right !
<NeoSoleil> armin's here.
* Odat looks around for the high lofty chair
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<Armin> Well I think I will post a screen shot and I'll comment it a bit...
<Serplord> excellent
<cynchako> Could someone op me please...
<Odat> I agree
*** ErrorInc changes topic to 'Please direct your questions to and op (not 
armin) to ask him'
*** ErrorInc sets mode: +m
<PlagueB> in that case...
<ErrorInc> hehe
*** PlagueB sets mode: -o PlagueB
<ErrorInc> they are all making dumb noises
*** ErrorInc sets mode: -m
*** ErrorInc sets mode: +o PlagueB
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<Yukon-11> Dumb noises?  Hmm...never mind.  I don't wanna know.  ;)
<Yukon-11> So? Is anyone gonna op cynchako?
<PlagueB> Armin, I'm curious as to whether the interface for modifying face 
attributes of a polyhedron has been improved any.
<Serplord> is that "and" in the topic a type-o?
*** Armin sets mode: +o cynchako
<cynchako> thanks Armin
<Yukon-11> :)
<PlagueB> Prolly, serp.  Don't blame _me_.  ;)
<Armin> Yes PlagueB, it will change. Not done right now.
<Armin> A question that often come it whether I'll change the way QuArK handles 
polyhedron faces.
<ManaQuake> How about entities in 3D view?
<Armin> In other editors, it is generally easy to work with vertices...
<NeoSoleil> Armin:  It seems like whenever I  select a group of polyhedrons, it 
centers them oddly, causing rotation to deviate the cleanliness of it being on 
the grid... do you have any plans of changing/improving this?
<Armin> And there is no need for a QBSP that can read floating-points
*** PlagueB changes topic to 'Evening Chat with Armin Rigo'
<Armin> But for QuArK there is, because it doesn't work with vertices.
<PsycoMage> Armin, will you be able to alter the way you edit polyhedron sides 
similar to BSP's way? (i.e. adding vertices)
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<Armin> Even if all vertices of a poylhedron are on the grid, QuArK chooses 
three points on each face
<Armin> - any three points, not vertices -
<Odat> yeah I had the same sorta question
<Armin> and writes them.
<PsycoMage> armin- woops, nevermind.. :)
<NeoSoleil> who's armin talking to?
<Armin> That's why an enhanced version of the QBSP is required.
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<Armin> Now with the new version I insist on polyhedron faces even more :
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<NeoSoleil> Armin: do you plan on changing the way quark rotates selected, or 
even just one non-cubical, polyhedrons.
<Armin> you see each polyhedron face in the tree-view !
<NeoSoleil> Cool
<Armin> Sorry for the long explanation...
<Armin> The way it rotates selections : what do you mean ? Textures ?
<Armin> Yes, textures will follow all editor movements.
<PlagueB> I believe he refers to rotating groups of polyhedrons around an axis
<`eNtiTy> Armin: How's about a colored lighting slider built in?
<Armin> (we'll need yet another version of QBSP to read such textures...)
<Armin> Coloured light : will be done.
<`eNtiTy> Kickass.
<Odat> not to sound entirely thick,, but is the new version a brand new codebase 
or are you dipping back into the old one here and there?
<Armin> Axis selection : well, I could make something like that...
<Yukon-11> (Cool idea there'eN)
<NeoSoleil> Armin: if you were to select a non-cubical object, quark centers the 
rotation "differently" and then you get wierd rotating effects like it not 
actually being on the grid.
<ManaQuake> Again. entities in 3D view?
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<NeoSoleil> ManaQuake: what for?
<PlagueB> Neo: Group your selection and place a temporary info_null where you 
want the center to be.  
<Armin> Odat: the new version is rewritten from the scratch but I'm cutting and 
pasting code parts
<`eNtiTy> With entities in the 3DView, I think it would chunk up too much.
<PsycoMage> My friend has a bug happen quite  a bit, and sometimes for me.. When 
I add a new polyhedron face(ie a platform), it adds one right in the middle of 
the map, and one off to the side.. Any ideas?
<ManaQuake> Perhaps...
<Armin> Entities in the 3D view : of course will be done (once ;-)
<Serplord> What about features outside of map editing?
<ManaQuake> Yeah!
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Also, when editing in the 8 and lower grid mode, a lot of 
pieces of the brushes are missing....
<`eNtiTy> Any plans on fixing that?
<Armin> PsycoMage: didn't understand..?
<`eNtiTy> PsycoMage: Also I've seen that.
<Odat> yep, sounds like what I would do :) THe reason I asked was just to see if 
maybe the couple of minor bugs in the current one might carry over.. like the 
one in the leak finding code.. or that unexpected bomb it gets under NT
*** ]LMG[Deck is now known as Decker
<`eNtiTy> Armin: When you make a new Brush (INS), sometimes it makes 2 of them.
<Armin> Oh, hello Decker !
<PlagueB> Armin: I have the same problem Psycomage has, sometimes.  Quark will 
generate an extra, unasked-for brush
<Decker> :-)
<Armin> Sometimes two ?? Strange...
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<`eNtiTy> And often, that brush is outside, therefor VIS doesn't work properly.
<PlagueB> Seems to happen when I go to create a bush, then cancel it, then make 
one.
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: yeah.
<Yukon-11> (I had the 2-brush thing happen a few times...but I think it was 
through a bad mouse....it 'double clicked' on it.  Possible?)
<Armin> Ok... Anyway the new version has a completely different way of inserting 
new objects (at least technically)
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Any closer to making "Snap-to-grid" work yet? :)
<Armin> A single "double-click" should make only one brush be inserted. I'll 
have a look at this...
<Yukon-11> Will it have CSG Add?  Not just Subtract?  What about Intersect?
<NeoSoleil> Yukon: what does csg mean?
<Armin> Like I said... Snap-to-grid is not automatic, you need to hold down 
Ctrl.
<Odat> Armin: How about a toggleable option where click and drag creates a 
brush?
<ManaQuake> It does work..
<Yukon-11> (CSG: Constructive Solid Geometry)
<NeoSoleil> oh
<Armin> Intersect is already here
<NeoSoleil> ya
<Yukon-11> Oh yeah...*sheepishly lowering his head*
<NeoSoleil> hah
<PlagueB> CSG Add would be nice, but it would be easy to get non-valid (concave) 
brushes.
<Armin> CSG Add : if you mean a way to make a hole in a polyhedron that is used 
to make holes... Yes ! Planned.
<NeoSoleil> armin: ?
<Armin> Yes ?
<PlagueB> Armin: I believe by CSG Add, he meant take two brushes and combine 
them to a single brush.
<Yukon-11> Yes...closer.
<NeoSoleil> Isn't that (what you just said about csg add) a bunch of negative 
brushes, or whatever? (diggers)
<Armin> Well, then no CSG Add, because of the concave polyhedron stuff...
<Yukon-11> I understand.
<Armin> Yes, it's diggers inside diggers. I'll extend this model a little big.
<PsycoMage> how about a triangle prefab?
<Yukon-11> How about a 'Quad-divide' of a poly's face?
<Armin> Maybe forget about diggers and directly tag groups or single polyhedrons 
as "negative".
<NeoSoleil> armin: I understand, its simple.
<Armin> A Quad-divide is already done...
<PlagueB> Psyh: Just make one! :D
<PsycoMage> too lazy...
<cynchako> Maybe we can ask Armin to run down a general list of features in the 
"new" QuArK for us?? (if you aren't giving away any secrets that is).. I'm 
curious
<PsycoMage> i mean maybe triangles, pyramids(all types)
<Armin> A triangle ? You mean, a 4-sided pyramid ?
<Armin> Ok everybody, I think I will go and make a few screen shots... Wait a 
minute.
<PlagueB> cyn: that's what I was hoping he'd startthe session with.
<`eNtiTy> Probably means like those Triangle doors in Quake2.
<NeoSoleil> armin: how do you make those different cones, like in the complex 
polyhedrons section.  How'd you do that?
<ManaQuake> Cool
<Serplord> csg add would be silly because quark would just have to split it 
again to be .map format compatible
<PlagueB> Serp: not if it were a convex brush.
<NeoSoleil> no point then
<Yukon-11> Yeah. I suppose so.  Just a thought.
<PlagueB> I know many times I've wanted to add a cone to a cylinder directly 
beneath it (to get a tapered cylinder effect).  Ah well.
<ManaQuake> I wonder if there'll be better pre-fab support.
<Yukon-11> Now if we could get QuArK to import other 3D formats.....  .3DX, 
.cob,  .DXF, ...
<PlagueB> Mana: Better how?
<Serplord> csg add for convex only could be handy
<PlagueB> SerP: yes, but enforcing nonconcavity would be a REAL pain
<NeoSoleil> serplord: say "intersect" for me.
<Serplord> i frequently add simple polyhedrons instead of starting with a big 
many-sided one
<ManaQuake> I use cut and paste
<cynchako> Hi Decker.. a general "thanks" for sorting through the Q2 textures.. 
I'm sure we all appreciate it :-)
<Yukon-11> Yes!  Thanks Decker.
<Odat> yes indeed we do!
<ManaQuake> No lie, better layout.
<Odat> (thanks for pointingthat out)
<NeoSoleil> Thanks deckface!
<ManaQuake> ha!
<PlagueB> I just wish I hadn't already added so many extra textures to my 
model_q2.qme, now I can't upgrade to the new sorted version without redoing my 
own adds
<Decker> Your
<Decker> Welcome! :-)   (oops that damn enter!)
<Armin> Ok, the screenshot 1 is on 
http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/screenshot1.jpg
<`eNtiTy> Dammit Microsoft sucks.
<Serplord> oh, the joys of a 14.4 modem
<cynchako> PlagueB: wha not make a separate QME file for them?
<Armin> PlagueB: I'll do a conversion tool that is able to take back your own 
new prefab.
<Yukon-11> Looks good Armin....I like the 'tabs' idea.
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<Spectrum> When I start up Quark, it says it can't find model_q2.qme .... where 
do I get that file?
<PlagueB> cyn: because from what I understood they needed to be in model_q2.qme.
<Armin> With QuArK ;-) in the same package
<Armin> PlagueB: no, you can put them in any .qme file. You just have to make 
file links whenever you want to use it.
<Armin> This will also change a bit with the new version.
<Spectrum> I downloaded version 4.07, but I don't think it was in there...
<PlagueB> I'll wait for the new version then. :)
<Odat> I beleive it was added in after 4.07 was released
<NeoSoleil> decker is made out of poop
<PlagueB> I'm cranking out a map every two days or so right now, anyhow
<Armin> Odat: not, it was here in version 4.07, the last one released.
<ManaQuake> Looks like it's easier to apply textures, too.
<PsycoMage> you should make a way to "install" updates, and udated 
model_q2.qme's, so we don't have to either a)overwrite or b)redo our custom 
prefabs..
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<Armin> Yes, PsycoMage, I'll do that.
<Odat> mm.. I must be thinking of somthing else (gee what are the chances of 
that hey? L:)
<`eNtiTy> I swear, one day, Microsoft is going to make working Software, and 
hell is going to freeze overt./
<`eNtiTy> over
<PsycoMage> kewl
<Armin> Ok, can we speak about the screen shot ?
<PlagueB> Sure.
<cynchako> Spectrum: 
ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/idgames2/planetquake/quark/q2textr2.zip is the updated 
one  by Decker
<Odat> I'll hold off on the ice skates :)
<PlagueB> Your show, Armin.
<Spectrum> heh, yeah... my favorite oxymoron: Microsoft Works
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<`eNtiTy> What was the link to the screenshot?
<Spectrum> Thanks cynchako
<MaD_MaX> DECKER LICKS DICK FOR LIVING
<PlagueB> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/screenshot1.jpg
<Yukon-11> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/screenshot1.jpg
<Serplord> are the brush and face names totally automatic or can you rename 
them?
<`eNtiTy> Thanks.
<Armin> You can rename them.
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* `eNtiTy slaps Micro$oft once more.
<NeoSoleil> j
<ManaQuake> What's with the Decker bashing?
<Armin> Now everything down to the faces have attributes (Specific/Args).
<Armin> Notice how I could select one face of each polyhedron together.
<Armin> In this image, if I take the red handle, I can move both faces together.
<Armin> I could also change their texture in a single operation, and so on.
<PlagueB> Does that extend to altering the flags of the faces?
<Armin> This is how you'll for example be able to change Quake 2 flags on a 
whole polyhedron at once :
<Serplord> very cool
<Armin> just select the polyhedron and go to the "face" tab. You'll have the 
<Armin> ...the properties of all selected faces, in this case all the 
polyhedron's faces.
<cynchako> err.. anybody logging this? (I forgot)
<PlagueB> (I am)
<Odat> I am
<ManaQuake> I am
<cynchako> Thanks..
<NeoSoleil> mez0rs
<Yukon-11> I think i am too.
<Armin> Also, the Explorer at the left behaves quite like he currently does,
<Yukon-11> (yup)
<Armin> but with a few extras : e.g. copy-on-drag
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<Odat> that I like
<Armin> You can for example move or copy faces across polyhedron !
<Armin> polyhedronS !
<Armin> Invalid polyhedrons don't make the program crash with an exception,
<NeoSoleil> wierd!
<Armin> the invalid polyhedron is simply given another icon ("broken 
polyhedron") until you fix it.
<Yukon-11> cool
<Serplord> is there an easy way to fix messed up polyhedrons? like a single 
button that tries to clean them up?
<Armin> Noticed the "3D" tab ?
<NeoSoleil> yeah
<PlagueB> Yes.  Curious about that.
<Odat> have now :)
<Armin> You will have a 3D view of the selected object(s) there.
<`eNtiTy> THAT, is cool.
<Yukon-11> Ahhh!  Thats what I need!  Thanks!  :)
<Armin> In this example if I click on the 3D tab I get a view of the two faces.
<Decker> Could you make a Screenshot of that 3D-tab enabled, please?
<Armin> This would be an easy way to align the texture between them.
<Armin> Decker: no... because it's not done yet ;-)
<Serplord> (decker is looking for sexy pics - of QuArK)
<Odat> lol
<PlagueB> Has the 3d renderer been redone?  It hasn't worked for me for some 
time. :(
<`eNtiTy> heh
<Yukon-11> Can you set the 3D-tab to render from different views?  Like 
perspective, top, side, etc?
<`eNtiTy> How about fixing the 3Dfx viewer? I always get errors when trying to 
use it w/Quake2./
<`eNtiTy> Or does it not work with Quake2?
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<Armin> I hope there will be a new 3D renderer... but this is one of the very 
few things I want to keep "secret" !
<[LGC2]Eni> hi all
<PlagueB> Cool.
<[LGC2]Eni> yes!
<[LGC2]Eni> where is armin?
<[LGC2]Eni> hi
<`eNtiTy> And one more thing..... When Shrinking/Enlarging a Brush, you should 
have an option of Shrinking/Enlarging either the Top Window or the Bottom 
window. 
<PlagueB> Armin's the guy over there called "Armin".
<`eNtiTy> hahaha
<[LGC2]Eni> :)
<Odat> lol
<ManaQuake> Armin's a god!
<[LGC2]Eni> who is he?
<`eNtiTy> (and also both windows, naturally)
<Odat> yeah
<`eNtiTy> [LGC2]Eni: Do you use Quark?
<[LGC2]Eni> oh......no
<[LGC2]Eni> map maker?
<Odat> imagine how good you gotta be to be this coheren at 7 am
<ManaQuake> huh?
<`eNtiTy> [LGC2]Eni: you seem to be confused.
<[LGC2]Eni> sorry
<`eNtiTy> I think you're looking for #Quake/.
<Armin> 'eNtiTy: well you mean, with the movement tool palette ?
<[LGC2]Eni> forgot that Quark was a prog
<`eNtiTy> Armin: yes.
<`eNtiTy> Am I missing something here? :)
<ManaQuake> I haven't gone to sleep until 7 in twenty years!
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<Armin> You can tell QuArK to zoom in/out only along a single axis.
<`eNtiTy> hmm... never saw that.
<Armin> Click on "xyz" !
* `eNtiTy slaps `eNtiTy
<Spectrum> heh
<`eNtiTy> One more thing Armin, nowadays when I start Quark, EVERY TIME I start 
it, it says "File Extensions are not registered with Quark. Would you like to 
enable blah blah now?"
<`eNtiTy> Any idea why it does that every time I start it?
<ManaQuake> yes me too
<Serplord> there is a config option to turn it off...
<PlagueB> Could you be using another program that might be hijacking certain 
extensions?
<Odat> Ihave that happen too but it is from using another program (like pakker) 
that resets the associations every time you run it
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: QuArK is the only Quake/Quake2 editor I have on my machine.
<PlagueB> Entity: wouldn't have to be an editor.  mdl viewer would do it, even.
<Serplord> options-configuration-options-bottom checkbox
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: Have nothing to do with Quake/Quake2 except the games 
themselves and Quark.
<PlagueB> Odd.
<NeoSoleil> armin: you know how bsp has that arch making thing and you just 
define how many sides the arch should have (er, polyhedron "stones")... any 
plans on something like that?
<Serplord> "refresh registry associations at startup"
<Odat> armin: along the same lines as that question, something that would be 
cool is the ability for independant software developers to create a little DLL 
"plug in" that could add to that list of um.. wizards I guess you could call it
<Armin> NeoSoleil: there will be a few helpers (e.g. n-sided cones) but for an 
arch, you would have to go on your own way
<Armin> For example, make a big wall and dig an horizontal n-sided cone !
<PlagueB> Will n-sided polyhedrons extend to cylinders?
<Yukon-11> Dang. The arch thing in bsp is cool.
<ManaQuake> ...<small crowd tonight>
<PlagueB> Yukon: Make an arch in bsp and import it into Quark. :D
<Armin> Yes, that's what I meant actually. Sorry
<Odat> Yukon: Indeed.. take a lesson from programmers.. a seperate tool for 
every task
<`eNtiTy> Is the 3Dfx 3D Viewer good?
<`eNtiTy> (ie, faster than the other 3D Viewer?)
<Armin> New screenshots on-line !
<Armin> Yes but it's not done yet ;-) I won't say more...
<PlagueB> Screenshot filenames, Armin?
<Armin> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/ScreenExplorer.jpg
<Armin> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/ScreenConfig.jpg
<Armin> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/ScreenToolBox.jpg
<`eNtiTy> en francais! 
<`eNtiTy> Okaym that gradient is too cool.
<Armin> Well, no, the big buttons in ScreenExplorer are just for my tests !
<PlagueB> hm.  That's one language I never learned.
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<PlagueB> Very clean looking UI, Armin.
<Armin> Notice the Explorer ? It's actually the same software component as in 
the map editor.
<`eNtiTy> Armin: You should have the xyz thingy available on the Deflate/Inflate 
thing too.
<Armin> It means that you already know it ;-)
<ManaQuake> Armin, what language is Quark written in?
<Armin> 'eNtiTy : no, not yet.
<PsycoMage> vc++?
<Armin> ManaQuake: Delphi 2.
<PlagueB> Entity: you can simulate it though
<ManaQuake> Cool
<PsycoMage> awesome
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: How so?
<Armin> It's Object Pascal. I love Pascal - at least with all the required 
extensions that Borland made !
<Odat> hehe
<Odat> they domake it useable yes :)
<`eNtiTy> Pascal..... who'da thought it...
<PlagueB> Entity: select a face on the polyhedron, and inflate/deflate will only 
effect the axis perpendicular to the face
<PsycoMage> pascal kicks ass... have 7.0 on my HD
<Odat> I styill use it now and again
<Armin> PlagueB: actually it will only affect THAT face ;-)
<PlagueB> Armin: I was close. :D
<PsycoMage> well gents, I gotta go... might be here tomorrow..
<Armin> Psyco: yes, this was one of the first very good versions, with OOP, and 
so on.
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<NeoSoleil> OOP?
<Armin> Object-Oriented Programming
<PsycoMage> object oriented programming
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: When I select a face, the Movements Option doesn't come pu.
<`eNtiTy> up
<PlagueB> object oriented programming
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<NeoSoleil> oh....
<PlagueB> entity: just call it up
<NeoSoleil> anyone else know what it stands for?
<Spectrum> me
<Odat> the latest and greatest computer buzz word.. only this one is orth the 
buzz :)
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: What? How?
<NeoSoleil> say it
<Spectrum> it
<NeoSoleil> you fag
<MrRock> Armin: im getting an error PF_setmodel null ?????
<PlagueB> entity: "M" calls the movement palette
<`eNtiTy> Oh.,
<Armin> Where ? In Quake ?
<MrRock> quake2
<`eNtiTy> PlagueB: thanks. That's cool. Half the Keys don't work for me, so I 
don't use 'em much.
<Odat> yeah same here
<Armin> Maybe you made a func_door with NO polyhedron in it ? In Quake 1 this 
gives another error, but... I'll make a Warning when you try to run a map like 
this ;-)
<PlagueB> sokay, I normally use the buttons on the left, myself.
<Armin> 'eNtiTy: you have to click on one of the 3D views before the single-
letter keys work.
<ManaQuake> Mr. Rigo Rules!
<Armin> Single-letter keys have other meanings elsewhere !
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Typing my name is easier when you hit `e then TAB. Nick 
completion. :)
<Armin> Thanks ;-)
<PlagueB> not on _my_ client
<Armin> If you downloaded ScreenConfig, you'll see that you can customize more 
things
<Armin> e.g. the map key shortcuts.
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Also, I get a lot of errors (in fact, it's never worked before) 
on the 3Dfx viewer. It has some error in the 3D Window when I try to use it.
<Armin> Also, how each mouse button behave.
<Armin> You'll be able to tell : Don't select something unless I hold down 
Shift.
<ManaQuake> Armin, the only problem I have is occasional crashing of the 3D 
viewer.
<Armin> This was asked for... to avoid loosing the tediously selected 
polyhedron.
<Yukon-11> What about 3-button mouse support?
<Armin> Already done ! The middle mouse button it currently Zoom in, and you'll 
have new options like Free Zoom-in-out, Rectangle Zoom, etc.
<Yukon-11> Keen.  :)
<Armin> ManaQuake: the 3D viewer will probably be rewritten !
<ManaQuake> Kewl
<Odat> nifty neato too
<Armin> Let's speak about ScreenToolBox.jpg
<Yukon-11> k
<ManaQuake> k
<Armin> This small example contains default new file types
<Armin> It's the same as the "New" menu in QuArK 4.07.
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<Armin> The idea of "ToolBox" will be ported all across the program.
<ManaQuake> What's up Disruptor?
<Armin> The "New Items" window will be once such ToolBox.
<Disruptor> chillin. Waiting for my map to bsp
<ManaQuake> I heard that.
<RadarAWAY> always chillin Dis :)
<Armin> Also, ToolBoxes let you edit their content directly. So you'll be able 
to add prefab stuff to the New Items window directly !
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<PlagueB> Nice.
<Armin> The Texture Browser will also be a ToolBox.
<Armin> ...with an Explorer at the left, listing available texture pages in a 
tree-view fashion, and the selected page displayed at the right.
<PlagueB> Will there be a page of textures-in-use-in-map?
<Armin> All these tree views are the same software component
<Armin> Drag-and-drop works *between* three views !
<Armin> PlagueB: yes, I'll do that.
<PlagueB> Thank you!
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<Armin> Oh, a last note: about the file format.
<PlagueB> The scroll menu currently in 407 with that function is nice for 
keeping homogeneity, a graphical reresentation would be slick
<`eNtiTy> Armin: One more thing. WHen I make a group inside of Worldspawn, and 
then try to make another group inside it, it makes the 3rd group just above the 
second group. Any plans to fix this?
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<NeoSoleil> dur
<`eNtiTy> Damn, that was hard to explain.
<PlagueB> Entity: depends on where the highlight box is when you hit the group 
button
<Armin> Well, it's because you selected the group ! So the selected group is put 
into the new group
<MrRock> Armin:  Where can I get more in depth info on map makeing useing Quark 
407
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Ah, it's backwards. :) 
<Armin> MrRock There isn't much documentation...
<`eNtiTy> I know the fix is just to make it in WorldSpawn, then Cut/Paste it 
into the group where it belingfs.
<`eNtiTy> belongs
<PlagueB> backwards to you maybe.  makes sense to me. :D
<Armin> I won't write it before the new version is released anyway.
<Yukon-11> What about the ability to specify a new palette for Quake/2/Hexn2? 
Even if you have to put it in a .PAK or whatever? (without having to change it 
directly in the Quake/etc dir)
<`eNtiTy> MrRock: Check the list of links. Some of the sites are pretty good.
<Armin> `eNtiTy: creating new stuff will change a bit, too.
<PlagueB> ooh ooh ooh, request... please, _please_, have duplicators default to 
being contained in an empty group!
<`eNtiTy> Yukon-11: I've made the palette switch work quite easily.
<Armin> Did someone ever noticed you can DRAG the cube button ? And drop it 
where you want the new cube to be inserted ?
<Yukon-11> I havn't. :(
<`eNtiTy> For me, it was just editing QUake Context, and pointing to the dir 
with the new palette.
<Odat> I have
<Armin> You'll be able to drag the group button, too, directly into another 
group.
<`eNtiTy> Armin, that will be nice.
<MrRock> Yeah its nice
<ManaQuake> Armin, perhaps a professional tutorial included?
<Armin> Actually these cube or group or whatever else buttons will be 
customizable, like the New Items window is (I hope).
<PlagueB> Mana: I'd rather he spent his time improving the product... heh
<Odat> I'm working on a tutorial for him
<Odat> but I'm far from professional :)
<ManaQuake> ha!
<Yukon-11> :)
<Armin> ManaQuake: exactly what I wanted to say : there are guys over there that 
can make good tutorials !
<Odat> hehe
<ManaQuake> <err..>
<Armin> I wanted to speak about the file format.
<Armin> No more .qme...
<Odat> hey what can I saw I'm a programmer.. explaining things to people is what 
I do :)
<PlagueB> awww
* PlagueB waves to his cherished QMEs
<Yukon-11> Well folks, the little woman here wants to check her mail and stuff, 
so I guess I'll see you all tomorrow maybe?  Have a good night all!  Thanks for 
the info and screen shots, Armin!  (Later Derrick!  :)
<Armin> The file format is completely new... It stores everything 
hierarchically, like you can see on the ScreenExplorer
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<Armin> You will also be able to write a TEXT version of a QuArK file.
<`eNtiTy> Armin: plans for importing .QMEs to the new format?
<Armin> `eNtiTy: of course
<`eNtiTy> Kickass.
<Armin> The text version stores the same information.
<Odat> Armin: Will the file's format be given out for 3rd party people?
<Armin> It means you can hand-edit files with a text editor.
<`eNtiTy> Why anyone would wanna hand edit is beyond my comprehension. :)
<ManaQuake> That's handy
<Armin> For example it would let you do global search-and-replaces - replacing 
entities with other ones, and so on.
<`eNtiTy> Ah.
<`eNtiTy> That makes sense.
<Armin> Odat: yes - and the text version of the format is easy to understand 
anyway.
<Odat> coolness
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<Armin> That's how I made all test files right now : as the new QuArK cannot 
write files yet I made the files by hand
<Armin> Ok, I'll send a small example of this...
<Armin> Here is the beginning of the file that I used in the screen shots.
<Armin> {
<Armin>   QuakeC.qc =
<Armin>   {
<Armin>     data = "void() test ="$0D0A"{ Hello ! How do you do ?"$0D0A"};"
<Armin>   }
<Armin>   Test.qkm =
<Armin>   {
<Armin>     Root = "worldspawn:b"
<Armin>     worldspawn:b =
<Armin>     {
*** Armin was kicked by RushTC (flood)
<`eNtiTy> hahahaha!!
<cynchako> hehe...
<`eNtiTy> Wrong move!
<Odat> *gasp*
*** PlagueB sets mode: +b-o *!*rushtc@*.tccw.wku.edu RushTC
*** RushTC was kicked by PlagueB (harrassment)
<ManaQuake> lol
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<ManaQuake> Blue's News is on crack!
<Armin> Sorry I made a mistake... I'm back.
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<`eNtiTy> Armin, no, that lame bot did. :)
<PlagueB> Sorry about that Armin.  That bot's owner isn't around to supervise 
it.  It's kickbanned now
<PlagueB> Do as you will.
<ManaQuake> That sucks
<`eNtiTy> Good riddance anyways. That RushTC notice is annoying. :)
<Armin> What's on ? I think I didn't understand. There are kicking bots ?
<ManaQuake> Booted the wrong fella huh?
<`eNtiTy> Armin: The bot stops you from flooding (sending too much data to the 
users throwing them off IRC).
<PlagueB> The bot that was eft in this room thought you were making a malicious 
flood attack on the channel
<Armin> All right !
<ManaQuake> 'bots suck!
<Armin> Did you receive it anyway ?
<PlagueB> everything up to worldspawn.b
<ManaQuake> yeah, we got it.
<`eNtiTy> ManaQuake: Not in general. Usually people sending lines like that ARE 
annoying, usually spamming you with something.
<cynchako> Last part was: worldspawn:b =
<cynchako> <Armin>     {
<Armin> Ok... It's the beginning of the map...
<ManaQuake> Armin, this can be compiled under Borland C/C++?
<Armin> The end is : (hope I won't be thrown out ;-)
<Armin>     worldspawn:b =
<Armin>     {
<Armin>       info_player_start:e =
<Armin>       {
<Armin>         origin = "100 0 0"
<Armin>       }
<Armin>       brush:p =
<Armin>       {
<Armin>         origin = "0 0 0"
<Armin>         up:f =
<Armin>         {
<Armin>           n = "0 0 1"
<Armin>           d = "64"
<Armin>           1:i = {}
<Armin>         }
<Armin> ManaQuake: no, it's QuArK internal file format, Text version.
<ManaQuake> Oh.
<Armin> You can see how worldspawn contains info_player_start and brush, and how 
brush contains the face "up".
<Armin> You'll be able to hand-edit text files like this for advanced editing.
<ManaQuake> That really will come in handy.
<Armin> Everything is stored in this format, up to the tree in the Config window 
!
<Armin> Ok... other questions ?
<ManaQuake> ...<taking notes>
<`eNtiTy> Armin: The 3Dfx viewer!
<`eNtiTy> I've tried asking 3 times. ;)
<Odat> click-dragging to create a brush as opposed to drag/drop?
<Armin> No ! I won't say more
<`eNtiTy> Armin: I am talking about making the EXISTING one WORK.
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<Armin> `eNtiTy: ok...
<`eNtiTy> Not any future versions.
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Big Question: Does it work with QUake2?
<Armin> Actually I don't know why it works so badly.
<Armin> Of course it does, it is not related to the target game.
<`eNtiTy> I didn't think so.
<Armin> It shouldn't be...
<`eNtiTy> But, the 3D Window comes up grey, with some driver error.
<`eNtiTy> And then when I go to change it back to the Default .DLL, that one 
won't work either.
<Armin> Don't forget about the OPENGL32.DLL !
<ManaQuake> entity wants tech advice
<`eNtiTy> Armin: I didn't.
<`eNtiTy> I am reproducing it now.
<ManaQuake> lol
<Armin> The 3DFX viewer can only work with GLQuake's OPENGL32.DLL
<Armin> And the non-3DFX viewer can only work WITHOUT it !
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<Armin> Has someone still color troubles with the 3DFX viewer ?
<MrRock> I'm a newuser and I need a list of error/solutions is there anywhere I 
can get this?
<`eNtiTy> Access Violation at Address (blah blah)
<`eNtiTy> That's what I get.
<cynchako> yup.. mine's pretty bad unless really close up
<`eNtiTy> The Spinning 3Dfx logo comes up, and then it says that.
<cynchako> I get the "known bug, don't report" error quite a bit
<ZenZmurfy> cya
<`eNtiTy> Version 4.07       Address in the program : 10004CC8 (004B755C)
<`eNtiTy> Access violation at address 10004CC8. Read of address 0059D000.
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<Armin> MrRock: there is a short FAQ on the web site (and in file FAQ.TXT)
<`eNtiTy> cynchako: Also had that one ocne.
<`eNtiTy> once
<ManaQuake> Armin, you got any BSPs or MAPs for download? (Personal Work?)
<Armin> `eNtiTy: thanks for the error adress, I'll have a look.
<MrRock> thanks I did read that, my error was not listed though
<Armin> ManaQuake: you would like to see one of my maps ?
<`eNtiTy> MrRock: What error?
<ManaQuake> Sure I would!
<cynchako> Sorry to interrupt, but someone please e-mail their log to me from 
this session, and I'll set up a page on the QuArK site with sections of it, and 
the screenshots after tomorrow's session (dmckay@yknet.yk.ca)
<MrRock> pf_setmodel:null, in quake 2 map right befor it runs
<ManaQuake> I will
<Armin> I didn't make a lot of maps myself.
<cynchako> ManaQuake: thanks..
<ManaQuake> Too busy programming, huh?
<Armin> I made large one a few times ago but could never compile it correctly ;-
)
<PlagueB> know that feeling
<PlagueB> speaking of large maps
<Armin> It works with GLQuake, but with Quake you have a lot of gray areas.
<Armin> Anyway here is the zipper .qme...
<PlagueB> any chance of drawing a boundary line in the editor wher the 4096 line 
is?
<Armin> "zipped"
<Armin> PlagueB: I could
<PlagueB> please
<Armin> I could also remove the 4096 limit (actually around 5000)
<PlagueB> couple times I've accidentally made maps that went outside the limits 
of threespace, and didn't find out til compile time. :/
<ManaQuake> What's the address?
<Armin> http://www.planetquake.com/quark/files/laby5.zip
<Armin> Oh, 4096 is a QBSP limit ? Ok !
<PlagueB> Yes
<ManaQuake> Cool, got it!
<Armin> Laby5.zip is a .qme only, I don't have the compiled .bsp version on my 
hard disk right now, so compile it yourself...
<Armin> BTW, did someone already use QBSP_AR version 0.4 ? The new one ?
<ManaQuake> I will.
<cynchako> I haven't had time yet
<Armin> Most hard-coded limits are gone.
<ManaQuake> I've downloaded it, but haven't used it yet.
<`eNtiTy> I've been working on Quake2 now.
<ManaQuake> That's the one with the log files.
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<Armin> `eNtiTy: about the 3DFX viewer : the new one promises to be faster
*** cynchako sets mode: +o PlagueB
<`eNtiTy> Armin: heh.... I wouldn't know the difference. Didn't see the old one. 
:)
<Armin> I'm not that interested in correcting this buggy, slow 3DFX viewer we 
have now ;-)
<PlagueB> one trick I saw on a version of QE4 was a user-definable clipping 
plane, to limit how much was rendered
<`eNtiTy> Armin: Good enough. :)
<Armin> PlagueB: could be done... Along with multiple cameras, and so on... If 
there is time enough ;-)
<ManaQuake> That's cool, the file is in french (I think)
<Armin> Which file ?
<ManaQuake> Laby5
<Armin> Oh yes ;-)  All group names are in french !
<Armin> Ok... I think it's time to leave...
<cynchako> Slight topic change: How are you dealing with colored lighting in 
Quake2 support Armin? Sliders, windows color-pick box? (did I miss this answer 
earlier? :-))
<ManaQuake> Well, thats for the chat Armin, and the file!
<Armin> Window color-pick box
<`eNtiTy> I would like the standard Windows Color picker.
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<Armin> It will be the same as you can see in ScreenConfig.jpg, for colors.
<cynchako> cool.. much easier to use something already there :-)
<ManaQuake> Thanks, I mean
<`eNtiTy> Where it has some 32 colors or so, then you can double click and pick 
from the 64K spectrum
<Armin> When you click on a color, you have the standard Windows color picker.
<`eNtiTy> Yeah!
<Spectrum> You Rang?
<cynchako> great!
<`eNtiTy> hhahaha
<Armin> cynchako: "much easier to use something already there"... of course !
<Armin> Well, in the new QuArK there will be a lot of software components shared 
all across the program,
<Armin> e.g. did you notice that in ScreenConfig.jpg the configuration options' 
headline say "Specific / Arg" ?
<Armin> It will be the same for entities Specific/Arg's.
<cynchako> good!
<Armin> Ok, let's stop here. We'll see us tonight - I mean, tomorrow morning, 
9am GMT-8.
<ManaQuake> You say 2 to 3 weeks?
<`eNtiTy> heh... any word on a release date?
<Spectrum> I have to get up kinda early tomorrow, see you all later!
<`eNtiTy> later Spectrum
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<Armin> 2 to 3 weeks... because after that, my holidays end, so I'll try to make 
a working release before !
<`eNtiTy> heh
<ManaQuake> Great! Thank you Armin.
<cynchako> No rest for the wicked eh?? :-)
<MrRock> Armin: thanks for stopping in
<Armin> :-) See you soon everybody !
<`eNtiTy> Nice chatting with ya Armin and cynchako. I won't be  up at 8 AM, so 
I'll see ya.
<cynchako> I have to go too. See you tomorrow Armin
<ManaQuake> Good Night
<Odat> niters
<Armin> Good day for Europeans ;-)
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<ManaQuake> right
<ManaQuake> I'll send the log now...
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<cynchako> BTW, thanks for sending those color palettes SerpLord
<cynchako> ManaQuake: ok
<MrRock> im totaly new at this ,can anybody answer some basic questions?
<cynchako> Shoot...
<MrRock> about Quake2 maps
<cynchako> uhh.. I haven't done much with Q2 yet, but I'll try :-)
<MrRock> how can i make holes in a wall for a door or anything else
<MrRock> is there a way to cut in the middle of a cube besides hollow.
<cynchako> There are 2 ways with QuArK. 1) use the "diggers", and 2) create a 
brush the size of the hole that you want, place it where you want the hole, then 
"subtract" it
<cynchako> see above
<ManaQuake> It's sent, bro.
<MrRock> ok thanks ill try that
<cynchako> You can use a brush as a "cutter" just by placing it in the 
shape/size/place where you want the hole, and "subtract" that brush from the 
map. It will cut a hole in the brush(es) that it touches and reshape each brush 
to leave the hole
<cynchako> ManaQuake: thanks a lot
<MrRock> sweet
<ManaQuake> Good Night All!
<cynchako> The advantage with the "diggers" is that you can group the "digger" 
with the door brushes, and then move the door around without having to cut new 
holes. A digger is kind of like a "portable" brush subtraction
<cynchako> Gnight MQ :-)
Session Close: Sat Feb 14 02:39:20 1998

