
This thread, captured from the IBM Hardware Forum, 11/93, contains a
discussion about adding a second hard drive to a computer.  Although the
original discussion involves adding a second IDE drive, the thread
wends it's way through a very understandable, generic description of adding
a second drive.  Edited: Steve McCoy, 76702,1156.




#: 377422 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   25-Oct-93  16:52:08
Sb: Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Russell Cawthorne 71417,1067
To: All

I am installing a second IDE hard disk on my system. The Primary drive
is a Connor IDE 213MB half-height 3.5 inch drive. I think the model is
CP30204. I have the jumper assignments for the "new" second drive, a
Maxtor, but no idea of how to jump the primary Connor drive. There are
two banks; one of four pairs and one of two pairs. There are no jumpers
present as it is installed (as a single drive system)

Can anyone advise me?


#: 377614 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   26-Oct-93  08:37:32
Sb: #377422-#Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Russell Cawthorne 71417,1067 (X)

Hi Russell:  Here's the jumper info I have on the 30204:

                         Jumper          Function

                         C/D             Single & Dual drive master
                         No Jumpers      Slave drive


#: 377659 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   26-Oct-93  12:37:21
Sb: #377614-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Russell Cawthorne 71417,1067
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434

Many thanks for the help.

I removed all but the C-D jumpers in that bank on the Connor and
experimented with the jumpers on the Maxtor I was adding as a slave
drive. This worked in the configuration of 1,2,3 and 5 (the synch)
jumped. Others open.

The drive bay in my mini-tower case has provision for two 5.25 devices
(one floppy and a CD-ROM in my case) and two 3.5 devices (one 3.5 floppy
installed). The remaining space looks like it might accomodate two half-
 height items but the Maxtor is full height and so there goes the space
for the tape drive.

Actually, to avoid nasty knots in the ribbon cable I had to rest the
Connor on the floor of the bay and sit the Maxtor on top. This meant
that no screw slots aligned with any of the threads in either HDD - so
they are just stacked there with a touch of gaffer tape for minimal
security. I hope that the lack of separation will not cause a problem
with heat build up.

Thanks again,


#: 377892 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   27-Oct-93  00:15:21
Sb: #377659-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Russell Cawthorne 71417,1067

Hi Russell:  glad that you got them working.  I doubt that you will have any
heat problems by stacking your drives that way.  Just be sure to not ever
forget and tilt your system enough to cause the drives to break loose from the
tape and go sliding around inside your box, where they might cause some damage
(Murphy's Law).


#: 379053 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   30-Oct-93  15:11:48
Sb: #377892-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434

Hi Ed, Could you give me some general information on installing a 2nd hard
drive? I want to add another, but don't know much about it.

My current system is a Gateway 386/25 that has a Microscience Model 5100-00
105meg hard drive and an Ultrastor 12F controller.  From other messages I've
read, I believe the controller card will allow a 2nd hard drive.

I guess my main question is this: can I just go out and buy any hard drive and
expect it will come with enough directions to allow me to get it set up on my
own? That would include both hardware installation and whatever else needs to
be done.

Some other messages here suggest that some drives, e.g. Conner and Maxtor,
don't seem to work together. Do I need to be particularly concerned about this?
I don't see any ads for Microscience, so I guess they're gone.

And last, do you or others here have any recommendation about the brands to
check into or to avoid?  I don't think the budget will support a 400 meg size,
but half that would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.


#: 379248 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
!   31-Oct-93  09:01:03
Sb: #379053-#Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

Hi Rose:  regarding buying any hard drive....you will need to make sure that it
has a compatible interface, in your case ESDI.  Be sure to specify the
controller you currently have and your MicroSci drive model.  Expressly ask the
vendor if the drive that they are recommending is compatible with both pieces
of existing hardware.  Ask them to include docs for setting up the new drive.

If you have installed hardware inside a PC you can install a second hard disk.
I assume you have a slot available for it.  If you are familiar with aligning
cables to pin one on controllers and periperals, and maybe setting jumpers you
should have no problem.  If you don't and want to try it anyway, I and many
others here will be happy to coach you through it.

If you don't feel comfortable, then take your system to a local vendor who has
fair prices and will do the install.  Most will charge around $25 to install a
hard drive, at least in my area.  Maximize the benefits of this expense by
asking to observe the technician because you want to see how it's done.  If
they say no, find another one.  After you see it done one time you will feel
more comfortable about "going inside" and adding peripherals. Another advantage
of using a vendor is they are obligated to make the combo work.  They'll have
to take their new drive back if it's not compatible with your Ultrstor and/or
MicroSci.

As far as brands, any of the major's should work....Maxtor, Conner, WD, etc.
They main thing is to get one that is compatible and reasonably fast enough for
what you want to do.  Prices are dropping weekly, so you should be able to get
a good deal (less than $100 per mb).

Hope this answered your ???'s, if not get back to us here for more info.


#: 379259 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    31-Oct-93  10:07:32
Sb: #379248-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434

It does a great job of answering my questions!

I do have one other, though.You mention that I need to be sure to get a
compatible interface, namely ESDI. I don't know the difference between that
and, for example, IDE.  When I browse through PCMAG, the only interfaces I see
listed are IDE, MFM, and SCSI.  Could you give me more info on this, please?

I've replaced the hard drive once, put in a 16550 UART, and added memory, and
your description sounds like adding another drive will be no more difficult
than those tasks.

Actually, I have more apprehension about other elements of the job, rather than
the hardware installation part.  I'm not sure I know what to do to format the
drive and assign a drive letter to it, and to make it recognizable to my
system. I have Stacker on my current drive, and expect that will complicate
matters.  I haven't looked at the docs, so may be wrong.

When I put the other drive in, it was to replace a defective one, and Gateway
formatted it; I just swapped the hardware. I recently had some problems setting
the jumpers when I changed my modem to COM2, but it turned out I have the wrong
book for my I/O card.  Guess I 'll have to call Gateway to get me set up for
the new drive, if I need to make changes on jumpers there.

I'll proceed based on your suggestions, and will be back if I get stuck. Thanks
very much for your reply; it was very helpful.


#: 379500 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    01-Nov-93  08:36:03
Sb: #379259-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

Hi:  ESDI is an interface type, like MFM, IDE RLL, etc.  Your Ultrastor
controller is an ESDI controller, so you'll need to get an ESDI drive, also.

If you've replaced a hard drive, added ram, etc. then you can certainly handle
this job.

First thing to do is make a complete backup of your current hard disk.

Here's what you need to do to make your system recognize the new drive. First,
decide whether the new drive is going to be your boot drive.  Next, build
yourself a floppy boot disk if you don't already have one.  Everyone should
keep a floppy boot disk around as a backup in case you lose your CMOS or have a
problem so you can still boot your system.  Copy the following files from your
C:\DOS directory:  FDISK.EXE, FORMAT.COM, and CHKDSK.EXE.  I also included
other utilities on my personal boot disk like EDIT.COM, and some Norton Utils.
like Disk Doctor, Speedisk, and Disk Sort.  Build CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT
files to accomodate your special needs, if any (like STACKER drivers,
EMM386.SYS, etc.)  Now you are ready to rock n' roll.

Install the new drive and connect it to your Ultrastor controller. Depending on
the drives, you may have to set jumpers on the drives or the controller to
specify which drive is the master and which is the slave.  I'm being vague here
on the jumper issue because all of my hands-on experience has been with IDE and
MFM drives.  I'm sure someone else here on CI$ who has direct experience with
the Ultrastor controllers can offer more specific help on this topic if you
need it.

After you've installed the drive, boot your system and force it into SETUP mode
during the boot (press DEL, or whatever key combination will allow you to edit
CMOS values).  Here is where you'll notify the system that you have a second
hard disk.  If your new drive is the slave, enter the CMOS param's in the
section for the second hard drive, if it's the master, then first copy your
existing hard disk param's into the 2nd hard drive section and enter the
param's in the first hard drive's section.  Save your new CMOS values.  Insert
your floppy boot disk in A:, and proceed with the boot.

After you boot and are at the A:> prompt, run FDISK (see your DOS manual for
detailed info on using this).  If your new drive is the master, then you can
select all the 1's from the menu and get out (this creates a primary DOS boot
partition on the new drive).  If the drive is a slave, then create an extended
DOS partition on it.

Now run FORMAT.  If the new drive is the master, use the /S switch to make it a
bootable drive.  When finished you can copy whatever files you want to the new
drive and then reboot your upgraded system.

If I've overlooked anything, hopefully someone else will jump in and add to
this.


#: 379771 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    01-Nov-93  22:31:38
Sb: #379500-#Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434 (X)

Great directions!  I think I can do it.

I've been looking at prices--they're really dropping. Looks like 340 meg IDE
drives can be had for about $255 mail order. Hope I can find an ESDI one for
that price.  How could you tell that my controller is ESDI?

>>>Now you are ready to rock n' roll.

When I get the drive, guess all I'll have to do is run down to Kmart and pick
up Elvis.

Thanks again for all your help.


#: 379807 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    01-Nov-93  23:41:51
Sb: #379771-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110

Hi:  re:  <<  How could you tell that my controller is ESDI?  >>

When I looked up your drive, based on the mfg and model # you gave me, my
reference told me that it was an ESDI drive.  That Landmark Diskbase makes me
look a lot smarter than I really am (GGG).


#: 380189 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    02-Nov-93  20:39:13
Sb: #379807-#Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434 (X)

Excuse me for being a pest, but something else has occurred to me.

I notice that the ESDI drive prices seem to be about $1 a meg compared to about
.75 a meg for IDE.  The controller prices are all over the lot.

I'm wondering if it would be better to get an IDE drive and a new controller.
How does IDE compare to ESDI? Is one better than the other? Can you give me
some basis for comparison? Know anything about caching controllers?

Also, I saw a message that someone bought a 2nd drive, and his controller
allowed him to configure it as the same drive letter as his other drive. Seems
both drives would be seen as contiguous.  That seems like a good idea. Have you
ever heard of this?  What do you think the disadvantages would be?

Thanks again for anything you can offer.


#: 380340 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    03-Nov-93  08:38:25
Sb: #380189-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110

Hi:  I really don't know how IDE compares to ESDI.  I have not personally used
ESDI drives.  I believe that one advantage that ESDI drives *used* to have over
IDE drives was that you could generally get higher capacity drives with ESDI,
back when most people were using 40mb and a 120mb drive was a huge drive.  But,
I'm really not sure about that.

IDE controllers are cheap these days, so you can switch over without taking a
big hit.  You might also be able to sell or donate/write-off your current
controller and hd.  I don't have any experience with caching controllers, but I
have observed others here discuss them, so you can probably get some good
advice from one of those folks.

I have not heard of a controller that would see two physical drives as one
drive.  Sounds interesting.  I'm not sure that I see any advantages of that
approach, though.  I work with networks, so I guess I'm used to having drives
C: through J: or K:, and having everything on C: doesn't do that much for me,
though others might like it.  I would assume it would slightly slow down access
to the second drive, as the controller or device driver would have to do some
translation to determine whether you are accessing a file on physical drive C:
or logical drive C:, but I don't know that for sure.

Sorry I wasn't too helpful on this go-round, but you are getting into areas of
which I have no hands-on experience.


#: 381168 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    05-Nov-93  06:33:37
Sb: #380340-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Ed Gooding 72007,1434

>>>You might also be able to sell or donate/write-off your current controller
and hd.

Boy, I was really not thinking on this one. I completely overlooked that in
getting a new IDE drive and controller I'd also have to give up my current
drive. Oh, well, if I can get a 340, that will still be a *huge* increase. No
need to be greedy.

Thanks for mentioning it.


#: 381182 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    05-Nov-93  08:22:54
Sb: #381168-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Ed Gooding 72007,1434
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

Rose:  I just got some literature on a new IDE Host Adaptor that you may be
interested in.  I have no direct experience with this controller and don't know
the price at this time.  It is the GSI Intelligent IDEa, featuring new Flash
BIOS technology.  The flyer says it will coexist with another MFM, ESDI, RLL,
or SCSI controller.  It also says it does an auto-configure and supports drives
with more than 1,024 cylinders.  It supports up to four floppies, one QIC-80
tape drive and two IDE hard drives per system.  It supposedly doubles QIC-80
data transfer rates.  It allows the user to re-assign any floppy drive as the
A: boot device from the keyboard.  If you would like a copy of the flyer, email
me a fax # and I'll send it to you. I'm leaving town today until Monday, and
won't be able to respond until then if you do want a copy, but if you leave me
a number I can fax it then.


#: 380731 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    04-Nov-93  03:54:27
Sb: #380189-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Bertel Schmitt 73220,2562
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110

Rose: I've used 'em all, MFM through FAST SCSI-2. The decision between ESDI and
IDE is simple: IDE, IDE, IDE. It's cheaper, much faster and not headed for the
scrap heap like the outdated ESDI technology is.  IDE drives have most of the
controller on the drive, often including a small cache. And you can get your
hands on a $25 paddle board controller that does a fine job.

The jury is out on caching and VL  bus controllers.  Bottom line: it doesn't
hurt as long as you can afford it.  In a limited funds situation, your resources
should go towards the largest and fastest IDE drive.


#: 381169 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    05-Nov-93  06:33:44
Sb: #380731-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Bertel Schmitt 73220,2562

Glad you jumped in here; you bring up some things I haven't considered. For
example,

>>>>a $25 paddle board controller

I have no idea what this is. Can you give me more info and maybe the name of
one?

Also, I'm confused about the difference between cache that's on the drive and
cache that's on the controller.  Sounds like you're not. Can you help me there?
A recommendation would be welcome.

>>>>...caching and VL  bus controllers.  Bottom line: it doesn't hurt as long
as you can afford it.  In a limited funds situation...

My current machine is a 386-25. It suits my needs, and I won't be moving up for
another year or two.  Even then, with 2 kids in college, it will have a good
home.  Nonetheless, while I need more drive space, I'd like to keep it near
$300. From the little time I've been checking ads, I get the idea that it's
quite possible.

Thanks for any info you can share. Please feel free to point out anything else
I have overlooked.


#: 381351 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    05-Nov-93  18:01:59
Sb: #381169-#Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Bertel Schmitt 73220,2562
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

>>>>a $25 paddle board controller

It's a standard controller which combines an IDE, a floppy, two serial, a
parallel and a game port on a small (hence "paddle") board. They are really
cheap.

>>Also, I'm confused about the difference between cache that's on the drive and
cache that's on the controller.  Sounds like you're not. Can you help me there?
A recommendation would be welcome.

Many drives have a cache memory integrated in the drive electronics. It's a
small cache, 64 or 256K, enough to hold one or several tracks. You get that
with the drive. Cache on the confroller needs a 'caching controller', which is
much pricier and which takes from 1 Meg up to 16 megs. Last I looked, a Meg
went for around $70.

>> My current machine is a 386-25. It suits my needs, and I won't be moving up
for another year or two.<<

That clinches it: Get Computer Shopper, go through the ads and get the
largest IDE drive that fits your budget. Stay away from the caching
controllers, buy the cheap interface and take your kids to dinner.


#: 381391 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    05-Nov-93  20:25:12
Sb: #381351-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Rose Hatten 70410,3110
To: Bertel Schmitt 73220,2562

 Thanks for the information and advice (>> buy the cheap interface and take
 your kids to dinner <<)!

 One last question, if I may: If the drive has a cache, does that eliminate
 the need for PCCache or Smartdrv?


#: 381956 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    07-Nov-93  13:33:30
Sb: #381391-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Bertel Schmitt 73220,2562
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

> One last question, if I may: If the drive has a cache, does that eliminate
 the need for PCCache or Smartdrv?<

Oh my, that's the trickies question and you'll be getting many different
answers.

The most common is: If you can afford it, use both. You will most probably get
slight improvements. If money is tight, spare yourself the expense for
dedicated on-controller cache and put the money into system memory.


#: 383074 S1/Disk/Disk Utils [H]
    10-Nov-93  18:39:16
Sb: #381169-Help with 2nd IDE drive.
Fm: Wesley Davis 72240,3427
To: Rose Hatten 70410,3110 (X)

<< I'm confused about the difference between cache that's on the drive and
cache that's on the controller.>>

The cache on the controller is handled by a second CPU on the controller board.
Smartdrive or PCKwik or whatever is a main or host CPU (the one that also does
DOS and ...) based cache.

Unless you have a huge reason (I DOUBT that you do), go with the extra RAM on
the host CPU and a regular IDE controller (technically an adapter). This is
especially true if you run Windows, OS/2 or NT (NT can cache like nothing else)
- and if the applications need the RAM, the cache can "hand it over." Why pay
double for cache RAM on a caching controller? You only get one use out of that
RAM, and it all goes into the main RAM sooner or later.

When you might want a caching controller: when you have a network server with
at least 32 MB of RAM, preferably 64 MB, and a big database server; the 16 MB
of cache on the controller can do lookups while the heavily loaded server CPU
does other things. You must be able to tell the host (server) CPU not to use
much or any RAM as cache or you will end up caching everything twice, which is
slower.

<<My current machine is a 386-25 ...  I won't be moving up for another year or
two>>

Trust me, you ***DON'T*** need a caching controller. Buy some regular RAM
instead if you think you need more caching.

<< If the drive has a cache, does that eliminate  the need for PCCache or
Smartdrv?>>

No - 2 different things. Look at the size of the cache - drives only have 64K
of cache in the range you are looking at - maybe 256K. A good CPU (386 or 486)
cache will have 1 MB of cache, maybe 2. The drive only uses it to look ahead of
the last read; the x86 CPU can cache writes as well as reads, and it can cache
multiple files as well (not just last one read). Drive cache is a minor
assistant to CPU cache. Very handy when loading DOS - can really speed it up.
Otherwise, it is useful but not more powerful than a large (CPU or RAM) based
cache.

